He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

rogerg said:

I've heard that argument before but I believe that Abraham exercised faith in the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness. In Genesis 15:5-6, we read that God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He (God) accounted it to him for righteousness. God did not believe for him. Abraham chose to believe.

In regard to Philippians 3:9, we have the faith "of" Christ vs. faith "in" Christ argument. Some argue through our faith/trust in Christ while others argue through Christ's faithfulness to save us, and faith belongs to Christ or originates in Christ. Others simply argue through the faith we receive from Christ to trust Him.

Now here is how I see it. Unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44, 65) we would NEVER come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but that doesn't mean He forces us to place our faith in Christ for salvation. We are not simply zapped with saving faith in Christ with no choice in the matter. We must choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation.

The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God. Prior to my conversion, I clearly recall the Lord drawing me in and enabling me to believe, yet after that, I was at a crossroad and chose to believe in Christ for salvation. I was not forced to believe. I had a choice.

Elsewhere in scripture, we see that it's our faith. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. So, although faith does not originate within us and it's not something that we simply conjure up through the flesh, but once drawn and enabled by the Father, we choose to exercise faith in Christ for salvation.

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

This kind of faith "remains alone" (barren of works) because this is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. *Notice closely in James 2:14 - Says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. Hence the "no works." Something that is dead cannot produce good fruit. We must be made alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) FIRST then the good works "follow." (Ephesians 2:10)

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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I already thoroughly explained this in post #26.

James 2:24

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Faith only needs to be qualified here. This is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14) In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

James 1:21,22

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Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Genuine believers are doers of the word. Make believers are simply going through the motions.

One is not justified (accounted as righteous) by both faith AND works. This error results in salvation by works/works righteousness. Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)

Faith only in James 2:24 needs to be qualified. Empty profession of faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. (James 2:14) This is not to be confused with authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Man is saved by faith in Christ alone, apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain alone, apart from the presence of works.

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

turbosixx said:

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was still accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In Genesis 12, we read that Abraham went out of his country, from his family and his father's house to see a land that God will show him. That's only part of the story and yes it was by or "out of" faith that Abraham went, BUT it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

turbosixx · Nov 27, 2023

mailmandan said:

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was still accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In Genesis 12, we read that Abraham went out of his country, from his family and his father's house to see a land that God will show him. That's only part of the story and yes it was by or "out of" faith that Abraham went, BUT it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Let me ask you. Paul makes a point in Romans 3, then in ch. 4 he uses a Abraham as an example to prove his point. What is his point using Abraham, based on the context?

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

turbosixx said:

Romans 3:21-28 speaks loud and clear.:

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1-6 also speaks loud and clear:

Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The context does not negate this.

turbosixx · Nov 27, 2023

mailmandan said:

Romans 3:21-28 speaks loud and clear.:

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1-6 also speaks loud and clear:

Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The context does not negate this.

I was hoping to get your understanding. Also, you stopped a little short. Context. Paul is not making the point you want him to.

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

turbosixx said:

Paul's point is crystal clear to me.

rogerg · Nov 27, 2023

mailmandan said:

You lost me. Jesus plainly said that should someone truly believe then it is both a work and not only a work but God's work. I don't think there is any more to it than that.

mailmandan said:

Natural man cannot of himself exercise true faith nor believe. Spiritual wisdom is hidden from the unsaved. By the fact that one may think they have self-produced faith means that they haven't. Faith (Christ's faith) was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness: God imputed His faith to Abraham causing Abraham's belief in God. It comes as a result of salvation, not its cause.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

mailmandan said:

I would first say that our faith doesn't produce salvation, our faith is from salvation - salvation produces faith, faith does not produce salvation.
Actually, we are in fact "zapped" with true faith of/in Christ and that through the fruit of the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again from being saved. When someone is saved, they are unconditionally given a new spirit and a renewed mind becoming a new person, with a part of that being faith.

Please observe that one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Please observe that to believe in Christ is "given", but only to those chosen to salvation.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Please observe that only upon salvation, not before salvation, those saved are renewed by the Holy Spirit in the knowledge of Christ, which includes faith.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

mailmandan said:

The Bible breaks down the salvation process into two parts: 1) being justified during one's lifetime, and 2) being saved from God's wrath on the last day - the day of the Lord Jesus - when complete salvation (or eternal judgement) is realized. However, only those of #1 will take be saved from His wrath of #2 (future). 1 Peter 1:9, is referring to the #2, but for them the #1 part had already occurred, but that by Christ.

[Rom 5:9-10 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[1Co 5:5 KJV]
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

turbosixx · Nov 27, 2023

mailmandan said:

Could you please share it.

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2023

turbosixx said:

It's self explanatory. Don't over think it.

Everlasting-Grace · Nov 27, 2023

mailmandan said:

Those who are born of God may have previously walked in sinful ways, but no longer. (1 John 3:7-10) Only genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have put on the new man and walk in newness of life. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works along with promoting straw man arguments and slander is not the Lord's game plan and it's also not how we put on the new man/put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in newness of life. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (pseudo) Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and sometimes it's easy to tell them apart.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11) The allusion is putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor, he is imitating his superiors and is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform of a make believer does not make one become a soldier. Once one is first made a soldier and then is able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

I often hear works-salvationists cite these verses in order to support their claim that man is saved by works. If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Descriptive of unbelievers.

Sadly, the tares outnumber the wheat by far.

I am amazed at those who deny the power of God to change people.

Everlasting-Grace · Nov 28, 2023

rogerg said:

You lost me. Jesus plainly said that should someone truly believe then it is both a work and not only a work but God's work. I don't think there is any more to it than that.

Natural man cannot of himself exercise true faith nor believe. Spiritual wisdom is hidden from the unsaved. By the fact that one may think they have self-produced faith means that they haven't. Faith (Christ's faith) was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness: God imputed His faith to Abraham causing Abraham's belief in God. It comes as a result of salvation, not its cause.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I would first say that our faith doesn't produce salvation, our faith is from salvation - salvation produces faith, faith does not produce salvation.
Actually, we are in fact "zapped" with true faith of/in Christ and that through the fruit of the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again from being saved. When someone is saved, they are unconditionally given a new spirit and a renewed mind becoming a new person, with a part of that being faith.

Please observe that one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Please observe that to believe in Christ is "given", but only to those chosen to salvation.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Please observe that only upon salvation, not before salvation, those saved are renewed by the Holy Spirit in the knowledge of Christ, which includes faith.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The Bible breaks down the salvation process into two parts: 1) being justified during one's lifetime, and 2) being saved from God's wrath on the last day - the day of the Lord Jesus - when complete salvation (or eternal judgement) is realized. However, only those of #1 will take be saved from His wrath of #2 (future). 1 Peter 1:9, is referring to the #2, but for them the #1 part had already occurred, but that by Christ.

[Rom 5:9-10 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[1Co 5:5 KJV]
5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

For we have been saved by GRACE through FAITH, and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is by grace, But it is recieved through faith. It does not come after faith..

The_Watchers_2017 · Nov 28, 2023

wattie said:

it means, God tells you to do something, you do it, it's justified by God as Good Works.
it is God doing the Works, by having you do them.

this is not about some moral person thinks i should donate to the goodwill + get a tax break.
those are self works and self gain.

Justified Works: means, you won't be gaining anything monetary, but will be gaining Spiritually

rogerg · Nov 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

Salvation is received only as a gift through/ by the faith of Christ; it is not by/through the faith of man in any sense- His faith brought salvation, ours cannot; His faith is righteous, ours is not. Our faith comes to us solely as a gift from salvation - a result, not cause. Christ provided everything necessary for salvation, we provide nothing - we are but the recipients of that which He accomplished, and that is what makes it by grace - that everything needed was done by Him on our behalf - otherwise, it wouldn't/couldn't be by grace. Remember, it is Christ alone and in all ways who is the Saviour, man is not.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Heb 3:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Rom 1:4-5 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

JimmyTheLock · Nov 28, 2023

turbosixx said:

Is this the time when people staret telling us Paul was a dirtty, rotten, filthy sinner who lives a sinful lifestyle while being an Apostle at the same time?

I've heard people make this claim on numerous occasions.

Everlasting-Grace said:

Yes, He changes people initially when they get born again... but many are being deceived to believe it'[s OK to continue in their sinful lifestyles like they were before getting saved and preachers are telling them they are still saved while living in sin.

Do you think the Lord somehow FORCES people to quit living in sin at some point?

Or, do you think they are still going to Heaven even if the continue in their sinful lifestyles?

wattie · Nov 28, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

True. I don't mean self gain. But justified for eternal salvation is different to acts of service pleasing to God. They aren't dependent on eachother.

The_Watchers_2017 · Nov 28, 2023

wattie said:

AMEN!!

turbosixx · Nov 28, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

I've heard a lot of things about Paul but this is a new one for me.

wattie · Nov 28, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

Seems you need to meet more OSAS believers who are continuously faithful. But the truth is you yourself will have your own sin struggle. Mine is lust. Im dealing with it by God's grace. No one is without a struggle.

Everlasting-Grace · Nov 28, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

This just proves my point

He does Not HAVE to force people. They WILLINGLY follow him.. His sheep KNOW HIS VOICE

Dude, John said we cannot live in sin,, You say we can.

Sorry, But I will trust John. Not some self rightous pharisee

He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

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