We are not yet in the New Covenant prophecied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel - that is the Millennial reign

[DavidIsrael]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

 

[maxwel]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.



More on this after I hear from the others ...

Joined CC just to argue this doctrine:

You just joined, and posted this.... this is the first and only thing you've said.

Therefore you clearly joined just to argue this point of doctrine.

So let's hear the doctrine.
Please lay it out all.
What are all your doctrinal claims?
Please just be honest, and get it all out in the open.


Thanks.
.

 

[Cameron143]

And your initial reasoning was correct. Your conclusions, however, don't match.

How many more covenants are there?

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

Very interesting question but I agree with Maxwell post no 2, please let us know that you think of the subject and we can move forward from there.

Blessings and welcome to CC.

 

[Magenta]

How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled?

Many acknowledge that although hundreds of prophesies concerning the birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection
of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ were fulfilled during/through His incarnation, some yet remain to be fulfilled.

Welcome!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophesied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled?

The title of your thread is not only provocative but TOTALLY FALSE and misleading.

Obviously you need to study this matter properly. When the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh on the day of Pentecost, that prophecy of Joel was fulfilled. And the outpouring of the Holy Spirit meant that the New Covenant was now in effect.

While the New Covenant was given to Israel, Gentile believers were definitely NOT excluded. Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant (see the epistle to the Hebrews) and is "a Light to lighten the Gentiles". Thus Gentiles were added or grafted into the "good olive tree" of remnant Jews who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 11.

As to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years, that will only be fulfilled after the Second Coming of Christ. It has only been partially fulfilled. But it has no bearing on the New Covenant being in effect from the day Christ died. What did Jesus say at the Last Supper?And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament [Covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28) So the day Christ shed His blood for our redemption was the day when the New Covenant or Testament went into effect.

 

[selahsays]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

Not all prophecies will be fulfilled until Jesus Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom here on earth in the 1,000-year millennium. Here’s one:

2 Samuel 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as formerly …

 

[John146]

Covenant and testament are not the same thing...

For a testament to be in force, one must be dead, not so for a covenant.

 

[turbosixx]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

I suggest if we understand them spiritually, they have been fulfilled. Also, the language makes it clear we are in the new covenant.
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
If the new covenant isn't in effect, we do not have forgiveness of sins.

 

[notmyown]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

welcome to the site!

just wondering... by what covenant do you believe you are related to God?

 

[DavidIsrael]

Hi All, thanks for the warm welcome by many of you. Looking forward to a lot of fruitful conversations with everyone here. I have quite a few ideas that I would love to discuss with many of you especially since I've researched them quite deeply in the past few years and have a lot of evidence and coherence in the explanations. The only barrier I've faced till now is arguments in bad faith by fanatics. Let's hope that is not an inhibitor here.

In this thread, I would love to reply to all of you individually but will keep that for a little later. I will share an image and a write-up I wrote on some of my findings below. They will shed more light on the content of this thread though I would love to get more detailed later by answering some of your questions and vice versa.

Regarding Covenants, see if this works -

Regarding Messiahship, the Anti-Christ and the infallibility of the New Testament -

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qj-74F_MqzRViJeuetkqZQIsynv11gDVWOj_82Dl6ag/edit

PS: I predicted the Israel-Palestine conflict and the protests that happened before that for months, early this year (and in fact a few years earlier at the start of the pandemic. I also predicted the inflation and cost-of-living crisis that started around September 2022 - a Shmitah year. More on that in the link shared above. I am making the assertion that the Israel-Palestine conflict will lead to a repeat of 70 AD and hence the dual-fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy unlike the 2000 year gap theory held popularly by modern-day Christians)

 

[Moses_Young]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

Some of us believe that Daniel's 70 week prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.

 

[Evmur]

Is Paul right in Hebrews 8:8 (assuming Paul wrote it) when he quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and assumes that the new covenant Jesus started is the same New Covenant prophecied in the Old Testament? How can we be in a New Covenant, if the prophecies of the Old Covenant have still not yet been fulfilled? I am sure most of us would agree that Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, an OT and mother of all prophecies, is not yet fulfilled. Even Isaiah 49's and many other OT's mention of the regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel is still not fulfilled and in fact, the Messiah was supposed to do that.

More on this after I hear from the others ...

My response would be to say that the 2nd coming is not the end of the world as some suppose but the end of the church age, the Millennium reign begins and ALL the prophecies come to pass.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Some of us believe that Daniel's 70 week prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.

some prophecies have a double meaning...

 

[Evmur]

Hi All, thanks for the warm welcome by many of you. Looking forward to a lot of fruitful conversations with everyone here. I have quite a few ideas that I would love to discuss with many of you especially since I've researched them quite deeply in the past few years and have a lot of evidence and coherence in the explanations. The only barrier I've faced till now is arguments in bad faith by fanatics. Let's hope that is not an inhibitor here.

In this thread, I would love to reply to all of you individually but will keep that for a little later. I will share an image and a write-up I wrote on some of my findings below. They will shed more light on the content of this thread though I would love to get more detailed later by answering some of your questions and vice versa.

Regarding Covenants, see if this works -

Regarding Messiahship, the Anti-Christ and the infallibility of the New Testament -

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qj-74F_MqzRViJeuetkqZQIsynv11gDVWOj_82Dl6ag/edit

PS: I predicted the Israel-Palestine conflict and the protests that happened before that for months, early this year (and in fact a few years earlier at the start of the pandemic. I also predicted the inflation and cost-of-living crisis that started around September 2022 - a Shmitah year. More on that in the link shared above. I am making the assertion that the Israel-Palestine conflict will lead to a repeat of 70 AD and hence the dual-fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy unlike the 2000 year gap theory held popularly by modern-day Christians)

The OT is silent concerning the church.

 

[Evmur]

The OT is silent concerning the church.

The church is commissioned to announce the kingdom of God [Millennial age] not to set it up.

 

[DavidIsrael]

Some of us believe that Daniel's 70 week prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.

I am aware. I assume they are called Preterists. People like NT Wright, I assume. As John MacArthur says, NT Wright is NT "Wrong" on many things. Preterism can be disproven using the very chapter you use to describe it - Daniel 9. And it will show how blind some of us are when we read the Bible and purely want to jump to conclusions without spending enough time thinking or reading the Bible. And most Christians don't even spend time reading the Old Testament - we just think so highly of the New Testament that we forget how amazing the Tanakh is. Or perhaps, there is an enemy inside Christianity - like how Zac Poonen often reminds his viewers - who is spreading falsehood to destroy Protestantism through divide and conquer by making as many false interpretations mainstream as possible through new denominations - because they hate Protestants (I speak this as a person who was not born Protestant but an Orthodox Christian). Then they bully Protestants for having so many denominations. I am talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Jesuits.

Daniel 9:24 says - "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. "

The words in bold are the expectations that need to be absolutely fulfilled when the 70th week comes to an end. Has transgression been finished? Has sin been put to an end yet? Then why do we still sin? Sure, Jesus died for our sins (the sins of believers and those who endure till the end) but that is not the only thing that means. Has everlasting righteousness been brought? Has all vision and prophecy been sealed and fulfilled? Has the Most Holy Place (Jerusalem) been fully anointed? The last two/three questions can be answered at once - all this will happen when Jesus returns and starts the Millennial reign when "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done, On Earth As It Is In Heaven" as part of our Lord's prayer is fulfilled and Jerusalem becomes the capital of the world. All prophecies in the OT will be fulfilled only just before the start of the Millennial reign. Everlasting righteousness will be brought only then - the Messianic Kingdom. So when will Daniel's 70 weeks get fulfilled? Just before Jesus returns. A few hours before that maybe.

So the key to Daniel's 70-week's prophecy, which is Daniel 9:25-27 is the legend given in Daniel 9:24. We need to read that first and understand "why" it has to happen before we go into the main prophecy and understand "what" is going to happen. We got the "what" but not the "why" and that makes Preterism incoherent. At the end of Daniel's 70-week prophecy, the Millennial reign/the Messianic Kingdom will start. How can we be sure that the Millennial reign has not yet started - which is a claim Preterists carelessly make? All the Old Covenant prophecies have to be fulfilled. Even Preterists know that that is not true. Even the lost tribes of Israel have not been gathered yet (Isaiah 49). That is one significant Old Covenant prophecy that will take place before the end of the 70th week. Remember, Daniel's 70-week prophecy is for "your people and your holy city", according to Daniel 9:24. "Your" refers to Daniel. So who are his people? It is Israel - they include the Lost Tribes of Israel and not just the Jews, who we know of today. Even when Jesus came, only two tribes were prominently present in Israel - Judah and Benjamin, the Southern Tribes. So the Messiah has evidently not yet met the other 10 Tribes - to whom He was promised. We don't even know who the Lost Tribes of Israel are yet (I do, however), how can we know where they are and make the assertion that prophecy has been fulfilled for them? A lot of gaps there and only because of what? One concept that Paul does not talk about because he doesn't understand - the Lost Tribes of Israel. It was a mystery kept for the end times. Even Jesus talks about them -


Matthew 10:5-6 - "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

Matthew 15:24 - "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "

If the above explanation about Daniel 9 is true - which makes Preterism false -, then the Jewish interpretation that Jesus is not the Messiah mentioned in Daniel 9 and that Onias III, the High Priest (a person who was alive a few years before Jesus, if I am right), is that Anointed One, who is killed, is false because if they (people like Tovia Singer) claim that Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy has been fulfilled, the above explanations prove that that is not true.

 

[DavidIsrael]

some prophecies have a double meaning...

No prophecy has double "meaning". That would mean G-d is trying to say two things at the same time, which would be considered deceitful. Maybe you mean, "dual fulfillment", which I completely agree with - near-fulfillment and far-fulfillment. There are so many examples of that - dual fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy in Malachi, dual fulfillment of Daniel 9 which would mean there are two Messiahs - One King and One Prince (both of which I describe in the document), dual fulfillment of the beast prophecies, dual fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 - we Christians believe that Isaiah is talking about Jesus and I agree but that is the far-fulfillment. When Isaiah himself wrote that verse, he was thinking of his own son - "Clearly, the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7:14 and 8:3-4 are one and the same and that she is Isaiah’s wife. The real sign to King Ahaz is that Isaiah’s child will be born quickly " (https://aish.com/does-isaiah-714-refer-to-a-virgin-birth/). But G-d used the prophecy again during Jesus's time.

Usually, when there are dual fulfillments, the first time it occurs, it would not have gotten fully fulfilled. There would have been some things missed out.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Hi All, thanks for the warm welcome by many of you. Looking forward to a lot of fruitful conversations with everyone here. I have quite a few ideas that I would love to discuss with many of you especially since I've researched them quite deeply in the past few years and have a lot of evidence and coherence in the explanations. The only barrier I've faced till now is arguments in bad faith by fanatics. Let's hope that is not an inhibitor here.

In this thread, I would love to reply to all of you individually but will keep that for a little later. I will share an image and a write-up I wrote on some of my findings below. They will shed more light on the content of this thread though I would love to get more detailed later by answering some of your questions and vice versa.

Regarding Covenants, see if this works -

Regarding Messiahship, the Anti-Christ and the infallibility of the New Testament -

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qj-74F_MqzRViJeuetkqZQIsynv11gDVWOj_82Dl6ag/edit

PS: I predicted the Israel-Palestine conflict and the protests that happened before that for months, early this year (and in fact a few years earlier at the start of the pandemic. I also predicted the inflation and cost-of-living crisis that started around September 2022 - a Shmitah year. More on that in the link shared above. I am making the assertion that the Israel-Palestine conflict will lead to a repeat of 70 AD and hence the dual-fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy unlike the 2000 year gap theory held popularly by modern-day Christians)

I do agree with parts of your texts provides in the link, mainly the following ;
""
2. Everyone will know who God is. Do they know now? No. That's why there are still false religions that propagate the worship of false gods. That’s why we still preach the Gospel. In fact, there will only be one God in the millennial reign/New Covenant. All the fallen angels and the devil will be chained up. When Jesus returns, everyone will know who the King, the Divine Messiah, and the true God is as the 1000-year reign will start then. And most, if not all, unbelievers will be destroyed and not allowed into the millennial reign

3. The covenant will be made with the houses of Israel and Judah and that will happen when the lost tribes return

4. All the old covenant prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. For eg. the return of the lost tribes of Israel or even Daniel’s 70th week. How can the New Covenant start if the old covenant has not yet been fulfilled? Can we be in two covenants at the same time? Jesus also only fulfilled the 4 feasts of the Passover season. The 3 other feasts culminating with the Feast of the Tabernacles are still pending and until they are fully fulfilled, the Old Covenant is pending to be fulfilled""

As for your predictions it is impossible for anyone to take this into account, you may have foreseen this but cannot be used as a way to make me believe in what you say. I have learned to be cautious. I examine all things with scripture.

You mention messiah Ben Joseph, the Talmudic text i refuse personally, I trust the Torah but i reject the Talmud as it rejects Jesus as the Messiah.

there is a difference between a covenant and testament, some bible versions regarding matt 26:28 speak of a testament sort of a will before jesus was put to death!

King James Bible matt 26:28;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It would be nice to hear from bible experts who can read the original texts of the NT to tell us more about this.

A covenant is an agreement between to parties. I believe like you, the new covenant will be made when Jesus sets up the millennium kingdom, prophecies point to it. Jesus announced it and it will come to pass



The New Covenant
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

this is only a small part of the prophecy, it includes the restauration of isreal the lost tribes from all the corners of the earth, the time frame of this prophecy coincides with the second coming of our LORD Jesus the Messiah.

Other prophecies point to this also, We can discuss further certainly.

Peace.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

No prophecy has double "meaning". That would mean G-d is trying to say two things at the same time, which would be considered deceitful. Maybe you mean, "dual fulfillment", which I completely agree with - near-fulfillment and far-fulfillment. There are so many examples of that - dual fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy in Malachi, dual fulfillment of Daniel 9 which would mean there are two Messiahs - One King and One Prince (both of which I describe in the document), dual fulfillment of the beast prophecies, dual fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 - we Christians believe that Isaiah is talking about Jesus and I agree but that is the far-fulfillment. When Isaiah himself wrote that verse, he was thinking of his own son - "Clearly, the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7:14 and 8:3-4 are one and the same and that she is Isaiah’s wife. The real sign to King Ahaz is that Isaiah’s child will be born quickly " (https://aish.com/does-isaiah-714-refer-to-a-virgin-birth/). But G-d used the prophecy again during Jesus's time.

Usually, when there are dual fulfillments, the first time it occurs, it would not have gotten fully fulfilled. There would have been some things missed out.

I did mean dual or double fulfillment not meaning, I an french speaking and I do not always use the proper words. if you do a search on this you will find examples of dual fulfillment of prophecy.

Blessings.