Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?
- Thread starter tylerbones1313
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
you appear to be one of those kinds of people that can never be wrong.
you know i have not misrepresented anything.
i NEVER said WORKS can do anything for you.
i said, if God is Doing the Works through you, it is NOT YOUR WORKS.
i can copy/paste my WORDS here.
You really are lying here.
and choosing to lie.
you know i have not misrepresented anything.
i NEVER said WORKS can do anything for you.
i said, if God is Doing the Works through you, it is NOT YOUR WORKS.
i can copy/paste my WORDS here.
You really are lying here.
and choosing to lie.
To be honest from an outside perspective you seem to be the more irrational and emotional one here. There is a disconnect though. Although you guys are using the same words, you are meaning different things when you say them. It's the exact same thing that separates the saved once forever folks from the "you must obey to keep salvation" crowd. One side of the debate wants too much credit for things they don't get ANY credit for. You seem to believe that we are capable of doing good outside of Jesus, outside of being born again. Unless we are in Him we are not capable of any good, we can't please the Father full stop. That is why once He changes us, after He gives us new life resurrecting our spirit and reconciling it to Him, that He gets ALL credit and glory for these things. All of it. I don't say
"hey look at all this good I do now, I obey well", I say "anything good you see in me, anything good you think you see me do, it's Him, I'd have done none of it if He hadn't changed me". It's just very different ways of looking at it and to be honest I believe your way is more flawed and makes God seem less powerful. That just doesn't jive with scripture in my opinion. You seem you think we have much more control over things than we do, and doing so is honestly taking from Gods glory to try to get some for yourself. If you think our "will" is ever free, then you may want to get back into scripture to see what Jesus says about it.
I hope you're not too offended by my comment here, it was meant in friendship and not as an attack at all, just an outside perspective from someone reading this conversation.
"hey look at all this good I do now, I obey well", I say "anything good you see in me, anything good you think you see me do, it's Him, I'd have done none of it if He hadn't changed me". It's just very different ways of looking at it and to be honest I believe your way is more flawed and makes God seem less powerful. That just doesn't jive with scripture in my opinion. You seem you think we have much more control over things than we do, and doing so is honestly taking from Gods glory to try to get some for yourself. If you think our "will" is ever free, then you may want to get back into scripture to see what Jesus says about it.
I hope you're not too offended by my comment here, it was meant in friendship and not as an attack at all, just an outside perspective from someone reading this conversation.
I never take what people say as being ugly if they're sharing with me what they believe and it happens to disagree with my understanding. It doesn't even bother me when I can tell they are being aggressive or condescending. I only draw the line at personal attacks. At that point, I just don't respond.
I agree with your understanding of being saved. What I would like to challenge you on is your understanding of this part of your reply "while taking His perfect righteousness and applying it to me by His grace"
I'd like to discuss what the bible tells/shows us about when His righteousness is applied. I'd rather go to God's word to understand this and not use hypotheticals and personal experiences. After we have established what God wants us to know, then I have no problem applying that to hypos and experiences.
After Jesus had been given all authority, He sends the apostle out to add people to His church that He just purchased with His blood. He tells them to preach the gospel and 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.
We know that one has to believe to be saved and we see just that. Jesus says has believed (past tense), and just as we would expect, it comes before will be saved (future tense). One has to believe before they are saved. That is what Jesus means by this part of the verse but the one who has not believed will be condemned
This is the great commission and this is when Jesus commands baptism in His name. So Jesus adds and has been baptized (past tense) to has believed (past tense) and both are before will be saved.
Words are how information is communicated. If being saved comes before being baptized, Jesus would have told us so. Instead Jesus states 16 The one who has believed(1) and has been baptized(2) will be saved(3)
We see confirmation of this when the gospel is preached for the first time.
41 So then, those who had received his word(1) were baptized(2); and that day there were added(3) about three thousand souls.
No one who wasn't baptized was added.
I agree with your understanding of being saved. What I would like to challenge you on is your understanding of this part of your reply "while taking His perfect righteousness and applying it to me by His grace"
I'd like to discuss what the bible tells/shows us about when His righteousness is applied. I'd rather go to God's word to understand this and not use hypotheticals and personal experiences. After we have established what God wants us to know, then I have no problem applying that to hypos and experiences.
After Jesus had been given all authority, He sends the apostle out to add people to His church that He just purchased with His blood. He tells them to preach the gospel and 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.
We know that one has to believe to be saved and we see just that. Jesus says has believed (past tense), and just as we would expect, it comes before will be saved (future tense). One has to believe before they are saved. That is what Jesus means by this part of the verse but the one who has not believed will be condemned
This is the great commission and this is when Jesus commands baptism in His name. So Jesus adds and has been baptized (past tense) to has believed (past tense) and both are before will be saved.
Words are how information is communicated. If being saved comes before being baptized, Jesus would have told us so. Instead Jesus states 16 The one who has believed(1) and has been baptized(2) will be saved(3)
We see confirmation of this when the gospel is preached for the first time.
41 So then, those who had received his word(1) were baptized(2); and that day there were added(3) about three thousand souls.
No one who wasn't baptized was added.
Just in case someone is confused about the difference between Baptism unto Salvation (Holy Spirit Baptism) and Water Baptism...
Water Baptism is never associated with either Salvation or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:33, John Baptist draws a direct distinction between his water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus...
John 1:33
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
In the book of Acts, The Holy Spirit is introduced in stages. The time of Acts is a transitional period.
1.) In Acts 2, The HS comes upon a group meeting in an upper room and is manifest in a flame of fire...
Acts 2:
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2.) Later in Acts, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon John Baptist's followers by the laying on of Hands by the Apostles.
e.g...
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
We now understand that the baptism that is associated with salvation and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Baptism. We no longer seek out Apostles for laying on of hands but go directly to Jesus.
Water baptism is now only a ritual which points back to our true experience of being born again by Jesus.
Water Baptism is never associated with either Salvation or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:33, John Baptist draws a direct distinction between his water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus...
John 1:33
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
In the book of Acts, The Holy Spirit is introduced in stages. The time of Acts is a transitional period.
1.) In Acts 2, The HS comes upon a group meeting in an upper room and is manifest in a flame of fire...
Acts 2:
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2.) Later in Acts, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon John Baptist's followers by the laying on of Hands by the Apostles.
e.g...
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
We now understand that the baptism that is associated with salvation and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Baptism. We no longer seek out Apostles for laying on of hands but go directly to Jesus.
Water baptism is now only a ritual which points back to our true experience of being born again by Jesus.
Baptism is a Work:
According to the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), I believe they imply that baptism is a work.
I say this because there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is faith and not a work (Or a work of faith).
In other words, there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is what unites you to Christ but it is not a work in order to not contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.
Thus, these Christian groups will say they believe in “faith + works“ but they are redefining “water baptism” in an unbiblical way by saying it is faith (when in reality it is a work or work of faith). While water baptism is a part of the faith, it would not be a work that is any less of a work from other works of faith.
First, we see circumcision is a type of baptism.
A believer would first be circumcised in the Old Testament to show they were a Jew.
In the New Covenant, we believers are baptized to let others know we identify with the burial of Christ and we are Christian.
Colossians 2:11-12 says,
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
So in this above passage we see the spiritual inward working God does upon our heart when we are born again spiritually by God and it is paralleled by the outward rituals of circumcision and baptism. Note: We do not have to be circumcised. That is OT. But the point here is that God’s Word compares these two rituals as describing what happens to our inward man when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and the gospel message.
Second, according to Galatians 2, and Romans 4, it implies that circumcision is a work.
Galatians 2:3-4
“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”
As we can see above here, Paul is expressing his concern about those who are wrongfully trying to compel believers to be circumcised. We learn more about this in Acts 15 in that certain Jews were trying to get Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24).
Then Paul starts eventually starts to talk about how we cannot be justified by the works of the Law in verses 15-16.
Galatians 2:15-16
“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
So Galatians 2 teaches that circumcision is a part of the works of the Law (Which is a ceremony we do not have to keep).
Romans 5:2 says we have access to God’s grace through faith.
Taking this verse into account, Romans 4:3-5 would then be saying that we are saved initially by faith or a belief alone.
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 4:1-6 it mentions the word “works” 4 times. It talks about how we are not justified by works in this process of being initially saved.
The point is made in Romans 4:9-12 using circumcision involving Abraham. Abraham first believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness before he was circumcised. This circumcision is a work because Paul was just talking about how we are not justified by works in Romans 4:1-6.
So the point here is that if the Bible is teaching that circumcision is a work (and I believe I have demonstrated that above), then baptism is also a work because one can clearly see the connection between circumcision and baptism between the two different covenants.
Three, some try to get around this and say that baptism is a work of God and it is not a work you do. Well, it is a ritual that does involve some effort on your part.
You do have to…
#1. Find the right body of faithful believers (Which is difficult in these last days).
#2. Ask if they will baptize you and set a date to do so.
#3. Show up on the date and go down into the body of water.
#4. Relax your body so that they can hold you so as to dunk.
#5. Hold your breathe as they submerge you.
#6. Change out your clothes because they are wet.
Other believers who baptize you, have to…
#1. Agree to baptize you.
#2. Try to gather other witnesses if possible.
#3. Find a proper and legal place to baptize.
#4. Show up at the date.
#5. Go down into the water with you.
#6. Help to hold you so as to submerge you in the water,
#7. Declare that they are baptizing you in the name of Jesus (Which is the embodiment of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - Colossians 2:9).
#8. Change clothes because they are wet.
Think. It is work if a swimming instructor trains somebody how to swim and or hold their breath under water.
Some say it is a work, and yet they say God declares that this work is faith and then they say other things are works and not faith.
However, words mean things in this life and God is not the author of confusion and nor does His Word contradict itself.
My position on water baptism:
Water baptism is a work of faith. Water baptism is an outward ritual that a Christian will do at some point in their life that signifies the inward change when they believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:-14, and they call upon the Lord Jesus (seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him) (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). Ideally, baptism happens after a person is initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works, although we do see cases in the Bible where initial faith and baptism can happen simultaneously. If possible, baptism I believe should be done after a person immediately accepts the gospel and sought forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus Christ. Water baptism is not done to get initially saved and while it is required as a part of the faith, I do not believe water baptism is a salvation issue (See: 1 Peter 3:21, 1 Corinthians 1:17). Water baptism is a symbol or likeness of Christ’s death (Romans 6:5). Only the spiritual baptism in being born again will help us to crucify the affections and lusts and to live as a new person in Christ (Being raised with Him - see Colossians 2:12).
According to the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), I believe they imply that baptism is a work.
I say this because there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is faith and not a work (Or a work of faith).
In other words, there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is what unites you to Christ but it is not a work in order to not contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.
Thus, these Christian groups will say they believe in “faith + works“ but they are redefining “water baptism” in an unbiblical way by saying it is faith (when in reality it is a work or work of faith). While water baptism is a part of the faith, it would not be a work that is any less of a work from other works of faith.
First, we see circumcision is a type of baptism.
A believer would first be circumcised in the Old Testament to show they were a Jew.
In the New Covenant, we believers are baptized to let others know we identify with the burial of Christ and we are Christian.
Colossians 2:11-12 says,
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
So in this above passage we see the spiritual inward working God does upon our heart when we are born again spiritually by God and it is paralleled by the outward rituals of circumcision and baptism. Note: We do not have to be circumcised. That is OT. But the point here is that God’s Word compares these two rituals as describing what happens to our inward man when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and the gospel message.
Second, according to Galatians 2, and Romans 4, it implies that circumcision is a work.
Galatians 2:3-4
“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”
As we can see above here, Paul is expressing his concern about those who are wrongfully trying to compel believers to be circumcised. We learn more about this in Acts 15 in that certain Jews were trying to get Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24).
Then Paul starts eventually starts to talk about how we cannot be justified by the works of the Law in verses 15-16.
Galatians 2:15-16
“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
So Galatians 2 teaches that circumcision is a part of the works of the Law (Which is a ceremony we do not have to keep).
Romans 5:2 says we have access to God’s grace through faith.
Taking this verse into account, Romans 4:3-5 would then be saying that we are saved initially by faith or a belief alone.
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 4:1-6 it mentions the word “works” 4 times. It talks about how we are not justified by works in this process of being initially saved.
The point is made in Romans 4:9-12 using circumcision involving Abraham. Abraham first believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness before he was circumcised. This circumcision is a work because Paul was just talking about how we are not justified by works in Romans 4:1-6.
So the point here is that if the Bible is teaching that circumcision is a work (and I believe I have demonstrated that above), then baptism is also a work because one can clearly see the connection between circumcision and baptism between the two different covenants.
Three, some try to get around this and say that baptism is a work of God and it is not a work you do. Well, it is a ritual that does involve some effort on your part.
You do have to…
#1. Find the right body of faithful believers (Which is difficult in these last days).
#2. Ask if they will baptize you and set a date to do so.
#3. Show up on the date and go down into the body of water.
#4. Relax your body so that they can hold you so as to dunk.
#5. Hold your breathe as they submerge you.
#6. Change out your clothes because they are wet.
Other believers who baptize you, have to…
#1. Agree to baptize you.
#2. Try to gather other witnesses if possible.
#3. Find a proper and legal place to baptize.
#4. Show up at the date.
#5. Go down into the water with you.
#6. Help to hold you so as to submerge you in the water,
#7. Declare that they are baptizing you in the name of Jesus (Which is the embodiment of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - Colossians 2:9).
#8. Change clothes because they are wet.
Think. It is work if a swimming instructor trains somebody how to swim and or hold their breath under water.
Some say it is a work, and yet they say God declares that this work is faith and then they say other things are works and not faith.
However, words mean things in this life and God is not the author of confusion and nor does His Word contradict itself.
My position on water baptism:
Water baptism is a work of faith. Water baptism is an outward ritual that a Christian will do at some point in their life that signifies the inward change when they believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:-14, and they call upon the Lord Jesus (seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him) (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). Ideally, baptism happens after a person is initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works, although we do see cases in the Bible where initial faith and baptism can happen simultaneously. If possible, baptism I believe should be done after a person immediately accepts the gospel and sought forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus Christ. Water baptism is not done to get initially saved and while it is required as a part of the faith, I do not believe water baptism is a salvation issue (See: 1 Peter 3:21, 1 Corinthians 1:17). Water baptism is a symbol or likeness of Christ’s death (Romans 6:5). Only the spiritual baptism in being born again will help us to crucify the affections and lusts and to live as a new person in Christ (Being raised with Him - see Colossians 2:12).
Grace, and peace be unto you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is true that God is the One who enables us to do anything loving and good. It’s why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. It was Christ working in them, the hope of glory. Granted, I believe all three persons of the Triune Godhead or Trinity work in the believer to do good. Anyway, we can see this natural love by the woman who kissed Jesus’ feet. She loved naturally very much because she was forgiven much. 1 Corinthians 15:10 says that Paul labored more than his brethren, yet it was not himself laboring alone but the grace of God within him. Yet, that said, the Scriptures also teach we will be held accountable by what we do in this life. I see it as a co-operation. A walk.
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” (Amos 3:3).
We are told:
We are told to:
I hope this helps, and may all manner of good things in Christ be upon you.
It is true that God is the One who enables us to do anything loving and good. It’s why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. It was Christ working in them, the hope of glory. Granted, I believe all three persons of the Triune Godhead or Trinity work in the believer to do good. Anyway, we can see this natural love by the woman who kissed Jesus’ feet. She loved naturally very much because she was forgiven much. 1 Corinthians 15:10 says that Paul labored more than his brethren, yet it was not himself laboring alone but the grace of God within him. Yet, that said, the Scriptures also teach we will be held accountable by what we do in this life. I see it as a co-operation. A walk.
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” (Amos 3:3).
We are told:
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).
We are told to:
- Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
- Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
- Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
I hope this helps, and may all manner of good things in Christ be upon you.
-
1
- Show all
To answer the other part of the OP’s question:
I believe water baptism is a command as a part of the great commission from the Lord Jesus Christ, but it is not a salvation issue.
People can be saved on their deathbed by God’s grace through faith.
So water baptism is both a work (work of faith), and a command, but it is not salvific (See: 1 Corinthians 1:17, 1 Peter 3:21).
I believe water baptism is a command as a part of the great commission from the Lord Jesus Christ, but it is not a salvation issue.
People can be saved on their deathbed by God’s grace through faith.
So water baptism is both a work (work of faith), and a command, but it is not salvific (See: 1 Corinthians 1:17, 1 Peter 3:21).
-
1
-
1
- Show all