If men are justified before God by their faith and or repentance, then they are justified by conditions, or law or works, and then so its by their merit before God they are justified in His sight. 29
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Does your criteria for works also exclude “Amen,” which means-I agree? Your view of predestination has an aura of fatalism.
First of all ... you are the only one who keeps insisting that faith justifies when it is the Object of Faith Who justifies ... God justifies those who believe Him.
How many times must it be pointed out to you that it is God Who justifies before you will believe that it is God Who justifies?
Additionally, Scripture specifically states that faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
brightfame52, your statement contradicts what is written in Romans 4:2-5.
nope ... Scripture plainly states that salvation is wholly by God's grace through faith.brightfame52 said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
clearly faith ≠ works.
Your problem is that you erroneously believe faith is works and God plainly tells us faith is not works. Believe God and let go of your erroneous dogma.
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Justification proved by the resurrection of Christ !
A Truth about the resurrection of Christ that is scarcely believed in the world today, which is that it served as an testification that all for whom Christ had died, delivered for their offences, that they had been Justified, for He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
This agrees with Christs Justification here 1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He was Justified here as the Head of the Church, His Body
As well as here Rom 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Those He died for are Justified before God for the simple fact, His death for them rendered complete satisfaction to Divine Justice, He hath put away their sins before God Heb 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
God hath accepted the sacrificial death of Christ, made them He died for acquitted.
Even while those He died for are in themselves enemies and ungodly, nevertheless they stand Justified, and acquitted before Gods bar of Law and Justice, anyone not believing this do deny the witness of Christs resurrection from the dead !
A Truth about the resurrection of Christ that is scarcely believed in the world today, which is that it served as an testification that all for whom Christ had died, delivered for their offences, that they had been Justified, for He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
This agrees with Christs Justification here 1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He was Justified here as the Head of the Church, His Body
As well as here Rom 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Those He died for are Justified before God for the simple fact, His death for them rendered complete satisfaction to Divine Justice, He hath put away their sins before God Heb 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
God hath accepted the sacrificial death of Christ, made them He died for acquitted.
Even while those He died for are in themselves enemies and ungodly, nevertheless they stand Justified, and acquitted before Gods bar of Law and Justice, anyone not believing this do deny the witness of Christs resurrection from the dead !
Justification consists in these two properties:
#1 Remission/Forgiveness of Sins
Yes, when scripture declares that by Christ the elect have forgiveness of sins through or by His Blood as here Ep 1:7; Col 1:14 it does mean Justification. For example Col 1:14 reads
In whom we have redemption through hisblood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Now in that same blood redemption Paul writes in Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption[by His Blood] that is in Christ Jesus:
and #2 it consist in the imputation of righteousness The imputation of righteousness is joined with the forgiveness of sins, as Paul points out again in Rom 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
The forgiven person is here characterized as having righteousness imputed without works ! 29
#1 Remission/Forgiveness of Sins
Yes, when scripture declares that by Christ the elect have forgiveness of sins through or by His Blood as here Ep 1:7; Col 1:14 it does mean Justification. For example Col 1:14 reads
In whom we have redemption through hisblood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Now in that same blood redemption Paul writes in Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption[by His Blood] that is in Christ Jesus:
and #2 it consist in the imputation of righteousness The imputation of righteousness is joined with the forgiveness of sins, as Paul points out again in Rom 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
The forgiven person is here characterized as having righteousness imputed without works ! 29
Justification before God is objective being placed on the elect sinners account based solely upon the Suretyship obedience of Jesus Christ, then following that justification becomes subjective by God given faith before the born again sinners conscience. Its by God given faith the sinner comes into realization of their objective justification.
"all for whom Christ had died" ... what is stated in Scripture:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What is written in Scripture in context:brightfame52 said:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
brightfame52 said:
Romans 1:4 says nothing concerning justification. Romans 1:1-4 tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ is declared to be the Son of God with power because of His resurrection from the dead.
Romans 1:
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, )
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
nope ... those who are "enemies and ungodly" are not "Justified".brightfame52 said:
Those who are "Justified" are no longer "enemies and ungodly". According to Romans 5:1, those who are "Justified" are at peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ:
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
brightfame52 said:
... more straw man fallacy from brightfame52 ...The straw-man fallacy is when a person misrepresents his opponent's position and then proceeds to refute that misrepresentation (i.e., the "straw man") rather than what his opponent actually claims.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Please note about whom Col 1:14 is written:
Colossians 1:3-4 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints
in other words ... those who do not believe in Christ Jesus do not "have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins".
Let's read the verses following verse 24:brightfame52 said:
Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
brightfame52 said:
... again, let's read Romans 4:6-8 in context ... Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
In Romans 4:7-8, Paul quoted from what is written in Psalm 32 by David:
Psalm 32:
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.
And if you really do not understand what it is that David is saying, check out Psalm 32:10
Psalm 32:10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
brightfame52 said:
... in the context, the "forgiven person" is not "characterized as having righteousness imputed" without Also, in the context, it is clear that faith ≠ works ! ... that is what the Author of Scripture wants you to understand.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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... just believe what is written in Scripture ... quit trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma ...Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
and if that is not clear enough, there's also this:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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God Justifieth the ungodly.
That is God justifies His Chosen Ones, while they are enemies, and wicked by nature and habit Eph 2:2-3
There's a couple of reasons for this #1 is because all their wickedness and ungodliness by habit and nature has been imputed or laid to charge upon Christ Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.29
That is God justifies His Chosen Ones, while they are enemies, and wicked by nature and habit Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
There's a couple of reasons for this #1 is because all their wickedness and ungodliness by habit and nature has been imputed or laid to charge upon Christ Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.29
There is only One "Chosen One" (capital C, capital O) ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... and you or any other descendant of Adam are definitely not Him.
Additionally, if someone is justified, they are no longer "enemies" ... and God tells us when a person is justified ... when He imputes righteousness:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
If someone is an enemy of God, they are not at peace with God.
Ephesians 2:1 tells us that when we lived as shown in vss 2-3, we were dead in trespasses and sins.brightfame52 said:
The words "hath He quickened" in Ephesians 2:1 do not appear in the text. Ephesians 2:1-3 should read as follows:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Those verses describe the life of every born again believer before he or she believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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There's a couple of reasons for this #1 is because all their wickedness and ungodliness by habit and nature has been imputed or laid to charge upon Christ Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all
And another reason why the elect ungodly are justified before God while by nature children of wrath as others, walking in habitual wickedness and enmity towards God, is because not only has their wickedness been charged to Christ, but in addition Christs perfect law keeping obedience has made them righteous. Christs righteousness has been imputed to them Rom 4:6
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous[by imputation]. 30
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous[by imputation]. 30
The objects of Justification are God's Elect, His Election of Grace. Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
click
brightfame52 said:
... if someone is "justified before God", they are no longer "children of wrath" ... nor are they at "enmity towards God".your erroneous dogma does not align with what God reveals in Scripture.
You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
you added the words " [by imputation] " to Romans 5:19. Scripture tells us when God imputes righteousness:brightfame52 said:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
You deny thatt Christs death alone, His obedience unto death alone, renders a person righteous before God, even while they are ungodly. Rom 4:5 establshes that as well, as God Justifying the ungodly.click
your erroneous dogma does not align with what God reveals in Scripture.
You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
you added the words " [by imputation] " to Romans 5:19. Scripture tells us when God imputes righteousness:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
... what Romans 4:5 "establshes" is that faith is not works:Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Romans 4 also "establshes" that God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... not before, not after, but at the exact moment a person believes. At that moment, the person is justified ... he or she is no longer ungodly.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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A great truth of the Justification of God's Elect is that God will not lay anything to their charge Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
You continually debate truth.
Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Romans 4 also "establshes" that God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... not before, not after, but at the exact moment a person believes. At that moment, the person is justified ... he or she is no longer ungodly.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Justification in Christ the Lord has been promised to only one people ,seed and not all without exception Isa 45:25
In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. 30
In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. 30