Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

[NightTwister]

GET BAPTIZED.

Who and where are these Christians who refuse to be baptized? I've never met any.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus saved him directly... he was under no obligation to be baptized... he was not going to be added to the body of Christ, and he had no need of the indwelling Spirit.

If one is saved, are they then not automatically added to the body of Christ?

And is not the indwelling Spirit proof of one's salvation status?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Is Baptism in water a work or a command?

18. And Yeshua spoke with them and he said to them, "All authority has been given to me in Heaven and in the earth; in the manner in which my Father has sent me, I am sending you."*
19. "Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."
20. "And instruct them to keep everything whatever I have commanded you

it's a COMMAND, by Jesus, Who has ALL Authority!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

^
this comes "AFTER" Jesus and the Thief on the Cross.

 

[NightTwister]

18. And Yeshua spoke with them and he said to them, "All authority has been given to me in Heaven and in the earth; in the manner in which my Father has sent me, I am sending you."*
19. "Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."
20. "And instruct them to keep everything whatever I have commanded you

it's a COMMAND, by Jesus, Who has ALL Authority!

If you do something that is commanded, it is a work by definition.

 

[turbosixx]

Dont want to put words in your mouth, but I would also make the point that faith equals baptism.
To "Believe in Jesus" doesn't simply mean you mentally agree yes He exists and is the son of God. It means you believe what Jesus says, and Jesus says..... GET BAPTIZED.

Thanks for your comment. That is a good way to put it. I might also phrase it, those who are baptized have believed. Like those added on Pentecost, only those who were baptized were added and therefore believed the message.

I liked you other post and agreed with it a lot. I'm not sure your exact stance on the subject but these are my thoughts. Baptism in not an outward showing of an inward change. The bible tells us a lot about baptism but never that. If that were the case, Paul would not have needed to baptize those in Acts 19 again. They needed to be baptized again with the right baptism. The actual physical act wasn't any different but what they were doing it for was. I don't believe we can be taught wrong and baptized right.

 

[turbosixx]

I get your little rant and how/why this is so "annoying" to you, but the TRUTH is that if you're selling water baptism as part of the "price of salvation", you are wrong and truth matters. I understand what you mean and how it feels like pointless bickering, but the truth matters, and the truth is you do not have to be dunked in water before you're saved, and if anyone is teaching or telling others that it is, then they are in error and in fact selling lies. That matters and makes a difference.

I agree the truth matters and I believe how one is saved is the very most important answer we need to get right. I disagree with your view on baptism so it is not part of salvation, would you mind start with answering, what must I do to be saved? And how would you support that with scripture.

 

[turbosixx]

If it's ok with you, because of the length of this I'm going to focus on your baptism comments because I believe baptism completes the conversion process. We can get into the works vs. faith debate some other time.

Works cannot save us but we are not saved without works and you say we are saved by the work of water baptism? You can't have it both ways.

Let me ask you, can we be saved if we do not repent and confess?

You are making it so baptism is the means by which we obtain salvation. That's not saved through faith but saved by baptism.

Being baptized is 100% saved through faith. It is because of faith we get baptized. Did Noah not have faith because he did something in building the ark?

Without faith there is no good conscience.

I agree 100%.

The heart of the issue is what baptism signifies...not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You say signifies. Is there any other way to appeal/pledge to God for a good conscience other than through baptism?

Water baptism is the picture of the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said: The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

How does the bible tell us we point backwards to Christ's death and forward to Christ's resurrection?

Those who received his word (through repentance, faith implied or assumed, two sides to the same coin) were "afterwards" baptized. It does not say here that baptism was the direct cause of them being added.

In Acts 4:4, we read - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?

So are you saying these people were not baptized?

 

[hornetguy]

If one is saved, are they then not automatically added to the body of Christ?

And is not the indwelling Spirit proof of one's salvation status?

I was talking about the earthly, living body of believers. He was about to die, and Jesus gave him a direct pass to paradise.
I believe the indwelling Spirit is only for those that are living. The Spirit was sent as a comforter, and "guide" for believers. This did not happen until after Jesus returned to be with God. The thief, again, was about to die, and had no need of the indwelling Spirit.... He had Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

I was talking about the earthly, living body of believers. He was about to die, and Jesus gave him a direct pass to paradise.
I believe the indwelling Spirit is only for those that are living. The Spirit was sent as a comforter, and "guide" for believers. This did not happen until after Jesus returned to be with God. The thief, again, was about to die, and had no need of the indwelling Spirit.... He had Jesus.

Thank you for clarifying. I guess I think about it differently because my understanding is that
it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that assures us we will not pass into the second death.

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

Thank you for clarifying. I guess I think about it differently because my understanding is that
it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that assures us we will not pass into the second death.

 

[Komentaja]

The Bible way would be to accept the baptism methods of all Christian churches.

How so? When the word means to submerge. As someone else pointed out, Jews still dip in the mikvah, its never sprinkling. The eunuch was baptized as there was water, if it was sprinkling a simple water bottle would do.

Also baptized "into his death" and "buried with him" is clear SUBMERSION under water, not sprinkling, that aint no burial

 

[Komentaja]

Who and where are these Christians who refuse to be baptized? I've never met any.

There is one in this very thread who teaches no water baptism for today lol. mr Grace_ambassador and the hyper-dispensational people.

 

[NightTwister]

How so? When the word means to submerge. As someone else pointed out, Jews still dip in the mikvah, its never sprinkling. The eunuch was baptized as there was water, if it was sprinkling a simple water bottle would do.

Also baptized "into his death" and "buried with him" is clear SUBMERSION under water, not sprinkling, that aint no burial

And yet it doesn't.

 

[Komentaja]

And yet it doesn't.

Very garbage argumentation. "Nuh-uhh"

Here is some actual evidence of what I said, not just woof.

 

[NightTwister]

Very garbage argumentation. "Nuh-uhh"

Here is some actual evidence of what I said, not just woof.
View attachment 258072

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

 

[Komentaja]

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

So you thumbs it down, refuse to believe what the word means, despite evidence provided, and just continue on and make no effort in even defending the sprinkling view? And it says you are a licensed minister? The absolute state of "ministers" nowadays

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you for the well thought out reply. You've given me a lot to digest and respond to. I will gladly do so but it will take some time. Since I don't have the time right now, I would like to challenge this one point for now.

Jesus does mention it. The reason baptism isn't mentioned in those verses is because baptism has already been established previously in the conversation.
It's easy to point and say, where is baptism, when someone begins in the middle of a conversation. Your first verse here is John 3:15. If we back up in the same conversation, we see baptism is necessary.
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Jesus still did not mention baptism in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and believing is not baptism and believing "precedes" baptism and we are saved through believing/placing faith in Christ alone for salvation. It's just that simple.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5) So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

We see that exact thing on the day of Pentecost. Be baptized and receive the gift of the HS. Water and Spirit.

You left out repent. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Also, there is no need to mention it every time because (1) it's already been established and (2) belief must come first. If someone doesn't believe, whether they do or do not get baptized makes zero difference.
16 The one who has believed (first) and has been baptized (notice has been, past tense) will be saved (comes after both, not before baptism)
Same verse we see what if someone doesn't believe but the one who has not believed will be condemned. If someone doesn't believe, it doesn't matter if they get baptized or not, they are condemned.

Since belief precedes baptism and belief is not baptism and numerous times in scripture the Bible says we are saved through belief "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29.40.47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31: Romans 1:16; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..) then baptism would need to be mentioned every time in order to be included in the equation. Repentance unto salvation is a change of mind which "precedes" belief/faith (Acts 20:21) and the new direction of this change of mind is belief/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin, so repentance does not need to be mentioned alongside of belief/faith every time. It's already implied or assumed.

As I already explained, Mark 16:16(a) is general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized but he who does not believe will be condemned. Now if someone does not believe in the existence of Christ then of course they would not get water baptized, yet there are still numerous people over the years (especially people who are members of churches that teach salvation by works, including Catholicism and Mormonism) who have been water baptized yet merely believe "mental assent" in the existence of Christ and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" but they are still missing the crucial element of belief, namely, trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16) so they do not believe unto salvation, yet they get water baptized anyway because they are trusting in water baptism + other works for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

If it's ok with you, because of the length of this I'm going to focus on your baptism comments because I believe baptism completes the conversion process.

I believe that faith (repentance implied or assumed) completes the conversion process and water baptism follows.

We can get into the works vs. faith debate some other time.

What you teach is salvation by faith + the work of baptism.

Let me ask you, can we be saved if we do not repent and confess?

No. Luke 13:3 - unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Unless we repent (change our mind) we will not believe the gospel and be saved. (Romans 1:16)

Now confess is not a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So how can one believe unto righteousness (and still be lost?) and also, how can confession be made unto salvation when confession "precedes" water baptism if water baptism completes the conversion experience?

Being baptized is 100% saved through faith.

No it's not. Being saved 100% through faith would mean that we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We are trusting 100% in Jesus, what He accomplished to save us. Faith in baptism for salvation is not 100% faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation.

It is because of faith we get baptized.

It's by or "out of" faith that we get baptized and accomplish other good works, yet faith is not baptism. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" baptism and obedience in general. It was not until I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation that the light finally came on.

Did Noah not have faith because he did something in building the ark?

Of course Noah had faith. It was by or "out of" faith that Noah built the ark. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.

I agree 100%.

You say signifies. Is there any other way to appeal/pledge to God for a good conscience other than through baptism?

You mean through what is signified in baptism? No.

How does the bible tell us we point backwards to Christ's death and forward to Christ's resurrection?

You don't believe that water baptism pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? (Romans 6:3-5)

So are you saying these people were not baptized?

No. I'm simply saying the Bible does not say that baptism was the cause of them being added.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How so? When the word means to submerge. As someone else pointed out, Jews still dip in the mikvah, its never sprinkling. The eunuch was baptized as there was water, if it was sprinkling a simple water bottle would do.

Also baptized "into his death" and "buried with him" is clear SUBMERSION under water, not sprinkling, that aint no burial

Its not submerged in water either

Its beng submerged into his death, being buried with him.