Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

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Cameron143 said:
What is it about the water that makes a dead man alive?
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The water is symbolic of a "cleansing" process. As scripture says, we are saved through water just like Noah was. With Noah, water killed the sinful men, buried them. With baptism, water buries the dead "old man", and the new man is resurrected .... as Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected. There is nothing magic about water, but it is symbolic in so many ways... and the bottom line is, we were told to do it.... we don't have to understand exactly why, like Naaman.... just do it. God commands it. Repent, and be baptized... the act of baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through Jesus' resurrection.
 
Cameron143 said:
What is a work of the law?
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What the scripture said we cannot be saved by. Trying to keep the old laws... trying to be "good enough" to earn salvation. Nobody could keep the law "good enough" to be saved... that's why we needed Jesus.
 
hornetguy said:
What the scripture said we cannot be saved by. Trying to keep the old laws... trying to be "good enough" to earn salvation. Nobody could keep the law "good enough" to be saved... that's why we needed Jesus.
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Are there any New Testament works from Jesus Christ which are absolutely unnecessary and, if so, which ones? ;)
 
hornetguy said:
The water is symbolic of a "cleansing" process. As scripture says, we are saved through water just like Noah was. With Noah, water killed the sinful men, buried them. With baptism, water buries the dead "old man", and the new man is resurrected .... as Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected. There is nothing magic about water, but it is symbolic in so many ways... and the bottom line is, we were told to do it.... we don't have to understand exactly why, like Naaman.... just do it. God commands it. Repent, and be baptized... the act of baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through Jesus' resurrection.
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A couple of things First, water was a picture of judgment for the people of Noah's day. But he and his family were saved in spite of the judgment, or through judgment. In like manner, the cross was a picture of the judgment of sin on Christ, but we, like Noah, are spared of the judgment. The ark was the instrument by which God spared Noah. The cross is the instrument by which God spares us. Salvation through judgment is a major theme in the first half of the book of Isaiah.
Second, and the reason I asked about the quality of water as a means of salvation, is because I knew that you didn't believe there was any quality in water that can produce salvation. Even if one believes baptism is necessary, it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. So we aren't dissenting on the how of salvation, but the when of salvation.
It's interesting that you mention Naaman. Naaman was healed when he exercised faith. But when did he acquire faith to begin with? He was a heathen. But later he was a believer. When did that occur?
 
hornetguy said:
What the scripture said we cannot be saved by. Trying to keep the old laws... trying to be "good enough" to earn salvation. Nobody could keep the law "good enough" to be saved... that's why we needed Jesus.
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Which laws?
 
hornetguy said:
The water is symbolic of a "cleansing" process. As scripture says, we are saved through water just like Noah was. With Noah, water killed the sinful men, buried them. With baptism, water buries the dead "old man", and the new man is resurrected .... as Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected. There is nothing magic about water, but it is symbolic in so many ways... and the bottom line is, we were told to do it.... we don't have to understand exactly why, like Naaman.... just do it. God commands it. Repent, and be baptized... the act of baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through Jesus' resurrection.
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It is good when proper teaching and explanation is given alongside (as you have done.) It must not be done mindlessly lest one mistake that which is symbolic for that which is the true source of power. All points us toward the blood of Jesus. We have false teachers right here on CC who teach that being washed in the blood is not sufficient for salvation.
 
hornetguy said:
Start by reading Levitcus....
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Are things commanded laws? Are new testament commands able to save us if we keep them? Can we keep them?
I'm not trying to make light of the subject? I'm trying to understand what you believe so we can discuss the subject from a common set of definitions.
 
Cameron143 said:
it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.
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Amen...
Cameron143 said:
It's interesting that you mention Naaman. Naaman was healed when he exercised faith. But when did he acquire faith to begin with? He was a heathen. But later he was a believer. When did that occur?
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He believed in the power of God enough to go dip 7 times, even though he thought it was a silly, useless act. Sounds familiar....
oyster67 said:
All points us toward the blood of Jesus.
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Amen
 
hornetguy said:
Those were laws to the Jews...

To which commands are you referring?

I think we can keep commands to the best of our ability as flawed humans. The difference is, we don't have to do animal sacrifices to cover where we fall short.... that was paid by the final, ultimate sacrifice.
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Any command. Love the Lord your God. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Keeping commands as best you can wasn't acceptable to God in the OT. Why would God accept this under the new covenant?
 
oyster67 said:
That why animals had to be sacrificed.


Jesus.
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My point is, there is no command we can keep fully being unsaved. Even once we are saved, there is no command we can keep. Nor should that be our focus. Our focus should be on walking in the Spirit. By walking in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Like Paul we will be living and yet, not us, but Christ will be living in us. This is the only way we live in obedience. If Christ is not in us until after we are baptized, what are the implications of that?
 
Cameron143 said:
Any command. Love the Lord your God. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Keeping commands as best you can wasn't acceptable to God in the OT. Why would God accept this under the new covenant?
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God "accepted" it under the old law if they gave their animal sacrifices, and had the High Priest take their offerings before God.
Jesus "fulfilled" the law by becoming the once and final sacrifice needed to cover our shortcomings. We do not have to keep anything perfectly, Jesus covered all of that for us. We simply have to be added to the body of Christ..... and that is where the disagreement begins.

Some say only faith is needed.. some say only belief is needed... some say only the "sinner's prayer" is needed.... some say, put your hand on the TV and send me your money...

Scriptures, taken all together, tell us that we need to first hear the gospel... then we have to believe what we have heard, have faith that Jesus will do what he says he will do... repent (turn away) from our sins, and be baptized... and not only are we added to the body of Christ, we will receive the precious gift of the indwelling Spirit of God.... it's so simple, but people just want to complicate it and make it fit what they believe, not what God tells us.
 
hornetguy said:
God "accepted" it under the old law if they gave their animal sacrifices, and had the High Priest take their offerings before God.
Jesus "fulfilled" the law by becoming the once and final sacrifice needed to cover our shortcomings. We do not have to keep anything perfectly, Jesus covered all of that for us. We simply have to be added to the body of Christ..... and that is where the disagreement begins.

Some say only faith is needed.. some say only belief is needed... some say only the "sinner's prayer" is needed.... some say, put your hand on the TV and send me your money...

Scriptures, taken all together, tell us that we need to first hear the gospel... then we have to believe what we have heard, have faith that Jesus will do what he says he will do... repent (turn away) from our sins, and be baptized... and not only are we added to the body of Christ, we will receive the precious gift of the indwelling Spirit of God.... it's so simple, but people just want to complicate it and make it fit what they believe, not what God tells us.
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I imagine each person's belief seems simple enough to them. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to answer my questions.
 
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

The man Christ Jesus died, was buried, and rose again, and we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus by repenting of our sins, being water baptized, and receiving the Holy Spirit.

You cannot cut out the middle man of the 3 steps, and the Bible says plainly that baptism is to identify with being buried with Christ, and then rising with newness of life.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus said it is water and of the Spirit to enter in to the kingdom of God.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Baptism does now save us, and is likened unto Noah and his family being saved from the flood.
 
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