Your "central tenet" is refuted by the story of David while in Keilah (1 Samuel 23). He asks God what would happen if he does certain things, and God has an answer for each specific question. David chose not to do something because of God's answer, and the thing that God said would happen did not happen because of David's choice. God does indeed know potential futures as well as the actual future.
Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
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Yep, the bible is full of if and then statements. If you do this, I know what's going to happen to you. But if you do that, I also know what's going to happen to you. Now choose...
Nothing in the passage states that the future is set in stone.
Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Nothing in the passage states that the future is set in stone.
Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Thanks Webers
And yet I so not quite agree with the basis of your FAQ
If God predestined Christ's followers to be conformed to the likeness of His Son then it is the assumption [reasonable to the human mind] that He predestined [all others ... so Calvin] to be conformed to the devil. It is an assumption, a reasonable assumption but an assumption nevertheless.
the bible does not exclude others from being saved.
In fact we are predestined to be a city set upon the hill, not to exclude folks but as a beacon and shelter and resting place for the lost and weary, a place of refuge.
I believe in a wider mercy.
And yet I so not quite agree with the basis of your FAQ
If God predestined Christ's followers to be conformed to the likeness of His Son then it is the assumption [reasonable to the human mind] that He predestined [all others ... so Calvin] to be conformed to the devil. It is an assumption, a reasonable assumption but an assumption nevertheless.
the bible does not exclude others from being saved.
In fact we are predestined to be a city set upon the hill, not to exclude folks but as a beacon and shelter and resting place for the lost and weary, a place of refuge.
I believe in a wider mercy.
I did not say he has other sheep that are not yet his sheep. I said there are other sheep who are not in His flock, i.e. There are other sheep who are not yet HIS sheep.
Saul of Tarsus was a lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not one of Jesus' sheep, because He was not listening to Jesus, but was persecuting Him, Acts 9:4. And Jesus said, "My sheep are listening to my voice. I am calling them and they are following me."John 10:27
But Saul became one of Jesus' sheep when He put his trust in the Lord. Before his conversion Saul was a sheep who was not in Jesus' flock. After his conversion he was one of Jesus' sheep who was listening to the voice of the Lord.
Saul of Tarsus was a lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not one of Jesus' sheep, because He was not listening to Jesus, but was persecuting Him, Acts 9:4. And Jesus said, "My sheep are listening to my voice. I am calling them and they are following me."John 10:27
But Saul became one of Jesus' sheep when He put his trust in the Lord. Before his conversion Saul was a sheep who was not in Jesus' flock. After his conversion he was one of Jesus' sheep who was listening to the voice of the Lord.
No, that is not a reasonable assumption. The fact that I state that one particular group X is predestined for N, does not exclude some or all of not-X also being predestined to N.
I could predestine all my students to pass their course. Group A sits their tests during Week 10 and all pass. That I predestined all of group A to pass does not at all imply I have predestined the remaining students to fail when they sit their test in Week 11.
That God had predestined that all who become in Christ by grace through faith to be ultimately conformed to Christ's image, is an encouragement to those who know they are presently in Christ. by grace through faith It tells them God is working on their behalf to bring the predestined end to pass.
But those who are presently not in Christ by grace through faith are not excluded from God having made the same destination beforehand for them. God could also have predestined them to conformity with Christ by grace through faith, but they are presently rejecting union with Christ by grace through faith, so it has not started working out for them as God intends for them. But if they continue not in their unbelief, God can graft them into Christ too. Rom. 11:23
I could predestine all my students to pass their course. Group A sits their tests during Week 10 and all pass. That I predestined all of group A to pass does not at all imply I have predestined the remaining students to fail when they sit their test in Week 11.
That God had predestined that all who become in Christ by grace through faith to be ultimately conformed to Christ's image, is an encouragement to those who know they are presently in Christ. by grace through faith It tells them God is working on their behalf to bring the predestined end to pass.
But those who are presently not in Christ by grace through faith are not excluded from God having made the same destination beforehand for them. God could also have predestined them to conformity with Christ by grace through faith, but they are presently rejecting union with Christ by grace through faith, so it has not started working out for them as God intends for them. But if they continue not in their unbelief, God can graft them into Christ too. Rom. 11:23
I believe the correct translation would be "And we know that for them that love God, he is working (present singular) all things (panta, neuter plural) together for good"
God is omnipotent in His work. He can reorganise things in the world to the believers' advantage and to help them grow in Christlikeness. His power over circumstances means He does not need to take over persons' wills to corral them nevertheless into acting unwillingly or unwittingly into fulfil prophecy. The Jews did not want to kill Jesus on the passover, but they did anyway. Pilate did not want to kill Jesus but he ordered it reluctantly anyway. Jonah wanted to go to Tarsus instead of Nineveh, but God got him to preach reluctantly in Nineveh anyway.
God is omnipotent in His work. He can reorganise things in the world to the believers' advantage and to help them grow in Christlikeness. His power over circumstances means He does not need to take over persons' wills to corral them nevertheless into acting unwillingly or unwittingly into fulfil prophecy. The Jews did not want to kill Jesus on the passover, but they did anyway. Pilate did not want to kill Jesus but he ordered it reluctantly anyway. Jonah wanted to go to Tarsus instead of Nineveh, but God got him to preach reluctantly in Nineveh anyway.
You have the wrong perspective. God would save all mankind if all would sincerely repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To suggest that God excludes any from salvation is utter rubbish.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
- do you know the future, apart from what you yourself set out to do by your own power in it, and are sure you will accomplish? you have stated God does not know the future except for what He Himself purposes to do by His power in it. so why are you arguing with yourself?
- misrepresentation: i was talking about me, an human, saying "try" -- in any case God tries and does not ever fail -- but that doesn't mean "putting forth effort" doesn't count as "trying"
- misrepresentation, again: i said, and open theism openly says, and you yourself have said multiple times in this thread, that God is "writ large" ignorant of the future. of course He knows what He is going to do. but you, an open theist, claim He has no idea what you or i will do, except in the very special case that you or i are fulfilling prophecy -- you have argued strongly that God is ignorant of 99% of the future for 20 pages. so why are you arguing with yourself now?
Around 911 we are guided :
Romans 9:11 and about 10 verses before and after: God created vessels of wrath, destined for destruction - those that will go to hell, and God created vessels of mercy, whom He decided will go to heaven, so that we may know God's righteous and merciful nature. Where God decides who will receive of His mercy.
Romans 9:11 and about 10 verses before and after: God created vessels of wrath, destined for destruction - those that will go to hell, and God created vessels of mercy, whom He decided will go to heaven, so that we may know God's righteous and merciful nature. Where God decides who will receive of His mercy.
Yes!
If someone was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, that person could never have been a child of disobedience, nor a child of wrath.
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
If someone was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, that person could never have been a child of disobedience, nor a child of wrath.
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
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9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God uses man to exhibit his attributes. Animals cannot experience love, obedience, eternity, justice, integrity, honesty, etc. God has chosen to show these to and in man. (Verses 22-24) shows us what God intends to do with his attributes. The "fitting" and "hardening" is never said to precede the person's choice based on his won free will.
God uses man to exhibit his attributes. Animals cannot experience love, obedience, eternity, justice, integrity, honesty, etc. God has chosen to show these to and in man. (Verses 22-24) shows us what God intends to do with his attributes. The "fitting" and "hardening" is never said to precede the person's choice based on his won free will.
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