Is Israel an apatheid state?

[Gideon300]

Many accuse israel of being an apartheid state. It would help to hear from Israeli Arabs who know the real situation. CBN news has this interview with a Muslim Arab Israeli citizen:

https://www2.cbn.com/news/israel/if...oman-praises-jewish-state-helping-her-succeed

 

[Ted01]

Hmm, for me... No, Israel could not be an "apartheid state". It's not in South Africa... surely there's a Hebrew/Farsi word for it?

The word "apartheid" is an Afrikaans word and was used for a particular situation, of a particular time. It means "apartness" or "separateness".

I know that people have been using the word to apply to similar situations around the world... I think mainly to illicit an emotional response. It reminds me of the social justice movements from the '60's and times since. I just don't like to part of a "movement", so I won't use the word... unless you want to talk things in South Africa back in the mid-1900's?

 

[maxwel]

Many accuse israel of being an apartheid state. It would help to hear from Israeli Arabs who know the real situation. CBN news has this interview with a Muslim Arab Israeli citizen:

https://www2.cbn.com/news/israel/if...oman-praises-jewish-state-helping-her-succeed

When people take a very specific term, from a specific time and place in history, and apply it to the latest cause... it usually just shows their ignorance.

Apartheid:
Under apartheid in South Africa: black people had no vote, they had virtually no rights, they couldn't attend the same schools, and they couldn't even live in the same cities with white people. None of that occurs in Israel.

Israel:
- In Israel, 20% of the population is Arab, and they live and work alongside the Jews... that is hardly the same as apartheid.
- In Israel, many Arabs and Muslims have full citizenship, while many others live and work, normally and safely, as "permanent residents".
- The Arab and Muslim citizens vote, have equal rights and protections under the law, full protection in the courts, and access to the same schools, universities, and jobs.

Gaza:
- The Palestinians in Gaza are NOT Arabs and Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with the Jews.
- They are a group of people who refuse to live peacefully with Jews, who do not want to be citizens, and who want Israel wiped out.
- These are sworn enemies of Israel, who have continually attacked and murdered innocent Israeli civilians over the years, have continually refused a peaceful TWO STATE solution, and have always broken all peace agreements.
- These are not peaceful Arabs and Muslims who want to coexist; these are sworn enemies who want Israel destroyed.
- Recently they even started a full blown WAR.
- Gaza has not been occupied since 2005, and they've had full autonomy within their borders, but instead of building businesses and infrastructure and farms... they've put their resources into building bombs, tunnels and bunkers.

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[Mem]

When people take a very specific term, from a specific time and place in history, and apply it to the latest cause... it usually just shows their ignorance.

Apartheid:
Under apartheid in South Africa: black people had no vote, they had virtually no rights, they couldn't attend the same schools, and they couldn't even live in the same cities with white people. None of that occurs in Israel.

Israel:
- In Israel, 20% of the population is Arab, and they live and work alongside the Jews... that is hardly the same as apartheid.
- In Israel, many Arabs and Muslims have full citizenship, while many others live and work, normally and safely, as "permanent residents".
- The Arab and Muslim citizens vote, have equal rights and protections under the law, full protection in the courts, and access to the same schools, universities, and jobs.

Gaza:
- The Palestinians in Gaza are NOT Arabs and Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with the Jews.
- They are a group of people who refuse to live peacefully with Jews, who do not want to be citizens, and who want Israel wiped out.
- These are sworn enemies of Israel, who have continually attacked and murdered innocent Israeli civilians over the years, have continually refused a peaceful TWO STATE solution, and have always broken all peace agreements.
- These are not peaceful Arabs and Muslims who want to coexist; these are sworn enemies who want Israel destroyed.
- Recently they even started a full blown WAR.
- Gaza has not been occupied since 2005, and they've had full autonomy within their borders, but instead of building businesses and infrastructure and farms... they've put their resources into building bombs, tunnels and bunkers.

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Would the Palestinian state qualify as apartheid?

 

[maxwel]

Would the Palestinian state qualify as apartheid?

Apartheid was a VERY SPECIFIC set of government policies, in South Africa, that applied only to South Africa.

If we want to talk about an entirely different place, with different issues, we should just talk about THAT place... rather than using reductionist analogies as an emotional appeal.

Gaza is a very strange and unique situation, and if anything, it's more like an enemy nation.
Israel offered them a two state solution (complete sovereignty) and they rejected it many times; Israel offered to place it under full jurisdiction of their neighbors in Egypt, and Egypt didn't want it. Gaza is like a thorn you can't get rid of. It won't go away, nobody will take it, and it can't be reasoned with. Please remember, there is not one Arab country that even wants refugees from Gaza. Nobody wants anything to do with Gaza, not even their Arab and Muslim brothers.

It's a strange place, and a strange situation.

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[gb9]

Apartheid was a VERY SPECIFIC set of government policies, in South Africa, that applied only to South Africa.

If we want to talk about an entirely different place, with different issues, we should just talk about THAT place... rather than using reductionist analogies as an emotional appeal.

Gaza is a very strange and unique situation, and if anything, it's more like an enemy nation.
Israel offered them a two state solution (complete sovereignty) and they rejected it many times; Israel offered to place it under full jurisdiction of their neighbors in Egypt, and Egypt didn't want it. Gaza is like a thorn you can't get rid of. It won't go away, nobody will take it, and it can't be reasoned with. Please remember, there is not one Arab country that even wants refugees from Gaza. Nobody wants anything to do with Gaza, not even their Arab and Muslim brothers.

It's a strange place, and a strange situation.

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and a very, very tense situation where both countries hate each other,

deeply.

 

[Mem]

Commentaries have been offered about God's sentiments concerning Israel, but I am really interested in the relevance of God's regard for cities (nations) such as Gaza such as seen in Jeremiah 27:5 and Zeph 2:4 (in the context of the judgment on the Philistines) and Zech 9:5 (in the context of the judgment against Israel's enemies).

While going over the entire chapters where these references are found, I also saw that the peoples of the descendants of Lot and his daughters, Moab and Ammon, were included in the proclamation of judgment. And following the cross reference led me to Isaiah 14 where the introduction addresses the day God gives Israel rest with mention of a song sung in contempt of the king of Babylon (him referred to as having "fallen from heaven o great star") and I looked up an ancient map of the Babylonian Empire, wherein what is known today as Israel was also a part of, along with the vast majority of the middle east...and this brought to mind the backdrop of the prophecy of the fall of Babylon the Great. It seemed to me that the entire middle east will be a wasteland. Has it been all along or is it already, or is this its future unfolding?

 

[Mem]

A particularly interesting verse struck me in light of the more peculiar but common practice of the most zealous among them.

Jeremiah 47:5
The people of Gaza will shave their heads in mourning;
Ashkelon will be silenced.
O remnant of their valley,b (Footnote: That is, the Mediterranean coast or plain)
how long will you gash yourself?

 

[HeIsHere]

Apartheid was a VERY SPECIFIC set of government policies, in South Africa, that applied only to South Africa.

The Apartheid Convention does not only apply to South Africa.

 

[maxwel]

The Apartheid Convention does not only apply to South Africa.

1.) The International Convention On Apartheid was specifically drafted by the U.N. to specifically deal with South Africa, the nation which instituted apartheid, and the nation from which the word apartheid comes. It was all about South Africa, and all done because of South Africa.

2.) The Convention was written a bit broadly however, so it could cover other nations who might do the same thing.

3.) But what was this "same thing"... this thing that South Africa did?

4.) This "same thing" was to infringe on people's rights based on their RACE.

5.) Israel does not infringe on anyone's human rights based on their RACE.
a. Jews and Palestinians (Arabs) are all semitic people... they're from the same general race.
b. Many Arabs live and work in Israel, quite happily, with full rights, and no problems whatsoever... no discrimination.
c. The Palestinians of Gaza are not relegated to a different geographical area due to racial discrimination, there is none in Israel.
- They are living in a separate area because THEY WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AND KILL JEWS.
- THEY ADMIT THIS, IT'S IN THE HAMAS CHARTER, THEY TALK OF IT OPENLY, AND WE JUST WATCHED THEM ATTACKED INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND KIDNAP OLD LADIES AND CHILDREN.
- ALL POLLS, ALWAYS, VERIFY THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS SUPPORTS HAMAS AND TERRORISM.
d. None of this has anything to do with race.... many peaceful Arabs live side by side with the Israeli Jews.
However, the Palestinians who want to destroy Israel and kill Jews don't really make good neighbors.
In fact, these Palestinians are so vicious and barbaric that no other nations, not even their Muslim brothers, will accept them as refugees or migrants. NOBODY WANTS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM, not even other Arab or Muslim nations.

6. Israel does not infringe on people's rights based on RACE: therefore, even if you want to define apartheid very broadly, beyond the scope of South Africa, it still has no application to Israel.


Conclusion:
a.) There are a lot of people around the globe who simply hate the Jews, and hate everything they do.
b.) This hatred of the Jewish people goes back to biblical times, and it seems to continue to this day.
c.) Misappropriating and Misapplying the term "apartheid" is just the last rhetorical smear, the latest slur, for those who hate Jews and want to harm them. It is nothing but the most current and fashionable derogatory slur.



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[maxwel]

Continued...

Final Thought:
It's almost pointless to comment here, or bother explaining anything.
The world is full of people who simply hate the Jews.
No amount of discussion will alleviate this strange and pervasive hatred.

The Palestinians have shot rockets into Israel, at civilians, almost continuously, for DECADES.
(It happens so often it's usually not even reported in the west, it's just part of daily life in Israel.)
If one country shot one rocket into the U.S., just one time, we'd march in and wipe them out.
Israel has shown extraordinary restraint.
And what is the reward for these decades of incredible restraint?
The moment the attacks become too ferocious to ignore... the whole world turns against Israel, calls them disgusting names, and attacks Jewish people in cities around the globe.

I just have nothing to say to this.

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[HeIsHere]

a.) There are a lot of people around the globe who simply hate the Jews, and hate everything they do.
b.) This hatred of the Jewish people goes back to biblical times, and it seems to continue to this day.
c.) Misappropriating and Misapplying the term "apartheid" is just the last rhetorical smear, the latest slur, for those who hate Jews and want to harm them. It is nothing but the most current and fashionable derogatory slur.

Soon as you employ "hate" as part of your argument then I know you are actually moving into the moral arena which not how a system of apartheid is determined.

Lawyers, scholars and UN Special Rapporteurs in the area of human rights have written many fact sheets and detailed outlines which have studied the policies in place and have concluded otherwise.

This is only one small section of the information gathered over more than ten years all you have is "hate" kinda like how cultural Marxists defend their position.

Really sad Christians cannot stick with the political facts.

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination censured Israel in 2012 for implementing “two entirely separate legal systems and sets of institutions for Jewish communities grouped in illegal settlements on the one hand and Palestinian populations living in Palestinian towns and villages on the other hand.” The Committee declared itself “particularly appalled at the hermetic character of the separation of two groups, who live on the same territory but do not enjoy either equal use of roads and infrastructure or equal access to basic services and water resources”. It called on Israel to eradicate all policies and practices of “racial segregation and apartheid” affecting the Palestinian people (UN document CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16).

 

[Cameron143]

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.[/QUOTE]

Continued...

Final Thought:
It's almost pointless to comment here, or bother explaining anything.
The world is full of people who simply hate the Jews.
No amount of discussion will alleviate this strange and pervasive hatred.

The Palestinians have shot rockets into Israel, at civilians, almost continuously, for DECADES.
(It happens so often it's usually not even reported in the west, it's just part of daily life in Israel.)
If one country shot one rocket into the U.S., just one time, we'd march in and wipe them out.
Israel has shown extraordinary restraint.
And what is the reward for these decades of incredible restraint?
The moment the attacks become too ferocious to ignore... the whole world turns against Israel, calls them disgusting names, and attacks Jewish people in cities around the globe.

I just have nothing to say to this.

.
.

I bet if China shot a rocket Biden would explain it as a mobile piñata dispensing free surgical masks. The explosion, of course, simply an accident because China was overly zealous to help our citizenry.

 

[HeIsHere]

The world is full of people who simply hate the Jews.

Tiresome, use a real argument. No one here hates the Jews when we refuse to defend their illegal actions.

 

[Cameron143]

Tiresome, use a real argument. No one here hates the Jews when we refuse to defend their illegal actions.

And no one here is shooting missiles at them. It is assumed that the ones that hate them are shooting the missiles. But there certainly are people in the world who hate Jews simply because they are Jews.

 

[maxwel]

Soon as you employ "hate" as part of your argument then I know you are actually moving into the moral arena which not how a system of apartheid is determined.

Lawyers, scholars and UN Special Rapporteurs in the area of human rights have written many fact sheets and detailed outlines which have studied the policies in place and have concluded otherwise.

This is only one small section of the information gathered over more than ten years all you have is "hate" kinda like how cultural Marxists defend their position.

Really sad Christians cannot stick with the political facts.

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination censured Israel in 2012 for implementing “two entirely separate legal systems and sets of institutions for Jewish communities grouped in illegal settlements on the one hand and Palestinian populations living in Palestinian towns and villages on the other hand.” The Committee declared itself “particularly appalled at the hermetic character of the separation of two groups, who live on the same territory but do not enjoy either equal use of roads and infrastructure or equal access to basic services and water resources”. It called on Israel to eradicate all policies and practices of “racial segregation and apartheid” affecting the Palestinian people (UN document CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16).

HATE: Emotional Arguments Instead of Data?

I've given plenty of data, several times, which you've seemed to conveniently ignore.

I mentioned "hate" at the end of my argument, after the data, as an after thought, a reflection, after I'd finished giving evidence and making my points.
Yet you accused me of employing the issue of "hate" IN my arguments, as if my arguments were purely and only based on emotion... once again misrepresenting whatever I place in front of you.

Then you keep bringing up the U.N., as if the U.N., a proven bastion of corruption and political intrigue, should garner any credibility with any rational human beings.
The U.N. is merely a political organization, with political agendas, to serve various political masters, all of which are provably corrupt and biased in a quite diverse and lovely multitude of ways... a beautiful kaleidoscope of corruption.
The U.N. is not, and never has been, a paragon of virtue or a bastion of truth and justice.


It's tiresome when you ignore data, intentionally misrepresent whatever I say, and place your trust in the U.N. Almighty.


You win, you've worn me out.
Congrats.


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[Dude653]

Hmm, for me... No, Israel could not be an "apartheid state". It's not in South Africa... surely there's a Hebrew/Farsi word for it?

The word "apartheid" is an Afrikaans word and was used for a particular situation, of a particular time. It means "apartness" or "separateness".

I know that people have been using the word to apply to similar situations around the world... I think mainly to illicit an emotional response. It reminds me of the social justice movements from the '60's and times since. I just don't like to part of a "movement", so I won't use the word... unless you want to talk things in South Africa back in the mid-1900's?

Words don't change meanings if they are using a different location. That's not how language works

 

[foolmefoolsyou]

they've put their resources into building bombs, tunnels and bunkers.

Israel has been attacking Gaza for decades, trying to ethnically cleans the land for Zion settlements
Timeline: Israel’s attacks on Gaza since 2005
This is the latest assault by Israel on Gaza since the 11-day war in May 2021 killed hundreds and wounded thousands.
https://tinyurl.com/mrxuun7a
Effects of the Gaza War (2008–2009)
There are multiple humanitarian, medical, economic, and industrial effects of the 2008–2009 Gaza War which started with the Israeli air strikes on 27 December 2008 and ended on 18 January with a cease-fire implemented unilaterally by Israel, and later the same day by Hamas and other Palestinian factions. The cease-fire followed twenty-two days of bombardment by land, sea and air which left over 1,300 Palestinians dead and over 5,000 injured, and the death of 13 Israelis. The United Nations Development Programme warned that there will be long-term consequences of the attacks on Gaza because the livelihoods and assets of tens of thousands of Gaza civilians have been affected
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)
The 2014 Gaza War, also known as Operation Protective Edge (Hebrew: מִבְצָע צוּק אֵיתָן, romanized: Miv'tza Tzuk Eitan, lit. 'Operation Strong Cliff'), was a military operation launched by Israel on 8 July 2014 in the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian territory that has been governed by Hamas since 2007. Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank by Hamas-affiliated Palestinian militants, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initiated Operation Brother's Keeper, in which some 350 Palestinians, including nearly all of the active Hamas militants in the West Bank, were arrested. Hamas subsequently fired a greater number of rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip,
The Israeli military operation aimed to stop rocket fire into Israel from the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

 

[maxwel]

Israel has been attacking Gaza for decades, trying to ethnically cleans the land for Zion settlements
Timeline: Israel’s attacks on Gaza since 2005
This is the latest assault by Israel on Gaza since the 11-day war in May 2021 killed hundreds and wounded thousands.
https://tinyurl.com/mrxuun7a
Effects of the Gaza War (2008–2009)
There are multiple humanitarian, medical, economic, and industrial effects of the 2008–2009 Gaza War which started with the Israeli air strikes on 27 December 2008 and ended on 18 January with a cease-fire implemented unilaterally by Israel, and later the same day by Hamas and other Palestinian factions. The cease-fire followed twenty-two days of bombardment by land, sea and air which left over 1,300 Palestinians dead and over 5,000 injured, and the death of 13 Israelis. The United Nations Development Programme warned that there will be long-term consequences of the attacks on Gaza because the livelihoods and assets of tens of thousands of Gaza civilians have been affected
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)
The 2014 Gaza War, also known as Operation Protective Edge (Hebrew: מִבְצָע צוּק אֵיתָן, romanized: Miv'tza Tzuk Eitan, lit. 'Operation Strong Cliff'), was a military operation launched by Israel on 8 July 2014 in the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian territory that has been governed by Hamas since 2007. Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank by Hamas-affiliated Palestinian militants, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initiated Operation Brother's Keeper, in which some 350 Palestinians, including nearly all of the active Hamas militants in the West Bank, were arrested. Hamas subsequently fired a greater number of rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip,
The Israeli military operation aimed to stop rocket fire into Israel from the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

1.) Your first link is from Al Jazeera, which is notoriously biased against Israel.

2. Your second post is a copy/paste segment from Wikipedia... which isn't recognized as a reliable source.

3. To paste links from a biased source like Al Jazeera, or an unreliable source like Wikipedia, seems like a low level of effort, and a rather disingenuous effort at debate... especially for someone who just joined CC for the sole purposes of debating Israel.



Have a lovely day.

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[HeIsHere]

And no one here is shooting missiles at them. It is assumed that the ones that hate them are shooting the missiles. But there certainly are people in the world who hate Jews simply because they are Jews.

And people hate Arabs because they are Arabs.
People were sharing that land for years before Britain/France went in and created a mess.