How can one learn?

[posthuman]

You really don't read my post do you?

my response was to where you said you don't want anyone to think we are brothers.

do you consider yourself a Christian?

do you consider anyone who believes what is written, that through the Messiah they are not under the Law, to be a non-Christian?

do you disagree with the beotherhood/sisterhood of the saints?

 

[posthuman]

You really need to read my post rather than just jump to assumptions.

i read them.

when you said without the Law no one can kmow right from wrong, i pointed to Cain not having the law but knowing what he did was wrong. you said some believe Cain had the Law. i said certainly some people believe wrong things, but the fact is that the Bible specifically says the Law came 435 years after Abraham. you replied 'oh anyone who disagrees with you is wrong huh' so i pointed to the scripture again and said this isn't a matter of opinion. now you replied to that, saying i don't read your posts.

we're not really having productive discussion.
how can one learn?

 

[PaulThomson]

Rom. 14:5, 1John 3:4, Now feel free to find a road of attack. It is what you many seem to do best on here, even if it means over looking the many post that say the exact opposite of your claims.

Rom. 14: 5¶One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
I'm having great difficulty seeing how that is interpreted as "
anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law.

I John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

There is no mention of condemnation here. It merely points out that it is sin to transgress the law. The context teaches that the born again believer can not sin if they are walking in the Spirit, and if they are sinning they must be walking by their flesh
It does not say they are condemned every time they sin. Condemnation is not mentioned anywhere i 1 John 3

 

[Magenta]

Rom. 14: 5¶One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. I'm having great difficulty seeing how that is interpreted as "anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law.

I John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

There is no mention of condemnation here. It merely points out that it is sin to transgress the law. The context teaches that the born again believer can not sin if they are walking in the Spirit, and if they are sinning they must be walking by their flesh.
It does not say they are condemned every time they sin. Condemnation is not mentioned anywhere in 1 John 3

Romans 8:1-2; 5:57 + 58b

 

[Rainrider]

So...if we don't play by your rules you won't let us play with your ball? Seems to be a little different strategy than becoming all things to all people.
Be that as it may, I've tried to engage on a couple of occasions and, at this point, still don't know your point. Can you write in one sentence the point you are making?

That once faced with the task of placing scripture into context with whole of the Word, most will not even try.

 

[Rainrider]

As I know posting my challenge, No one would step up to try and place the scripture I post in context with one another. I find that bot sad and telling.
Sad in that some don't have enough understanding of their own teachings to do so. Telling in unwillingness to even try. If the understand of one person is wrong, it is our job to meet them where they are, and both work to seek the truth. Not yours, mine, or the other person's. Sound Biblical truth. As I have maintained, and will hold to, not one person holds all the truth, and there is always reason to understand that what we think we know today, may change as ones teachings are put on open display. As fro me, well I have placed mine out there, and will keep doing so. However, i am unwilling to follow the idea that a person said it, so it has to be true. Even my own understanding can be flowed, however to show that in a way that hits home, one must be willing to answer the things I place out there.
If you don't read my post, or hope that others don't read them, you show an unwillingness to make your case in a manner consistent with the teaching of the word.
If we truly walk after the manner of Yeshua, and try to immolate Him in our actions. Order is His way. Never did Yeshua run from any question, He always gave a direct answer. One that followed the thought of the Question. Not once do we see him make the kind of aligations we have here. You know the kind that are not in line with the post of the one being accused. I see this as all good though. You see to use, it is like this. We have placed our understanding out there for all to see. Made clear our stand on salvation, as well the sacrifice Yeshua made for us.
In my last post I made it clear I was done with those that wish to practice the use of faults witness. So we am going to move forward from here, as though someone is really reading what we post. Though that may be only one person. So here go, with another off script post.

 

[Cameron143]

That once faced with the task of placing scripture into context with whole of the Word, most will not even try.

For anyone, this is a daunting task. For the young believer, it's overwhelming. For the mature believer, it's in process. God doesn't reveal everything at once. Otherwise, our brains would meltdown.
The Bible is a book consisting of 66 books, written over 1500 odd years by a myriad of writers in a number of languages. Added to that, it has been translated multiple times from multiple sources. It also contains a variety of writing styles and uses of language and the thoughts of an infinite mind.
I believe most Christians are making earnest attempts to do as you propose. Most desire truth in their inward parts. But we all are hindered by our finite minds, prejudices, and errant teachings. A site such as this is an excellent way to expand our understanding and come to a fuller knowledge of truth. I would posit that the greatest hindrance to knowledge isn't our lack of effort, but our lack of humility.
So it's a noble goal you have set. But one none of us will fully attain. This doesn't mean we leave the task. Rather, we ought to lower ourselves and learn from others.

 

[Rainrider]

Off script.
This is backing up a bit I know, please read this anyway, as it most likly will hold something not said before hand. Haveing said that, lets look and see if HaShem changes. This will be a short post, so please red it before you claim I said I never have.
Num 23:16¶And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus.
Num 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

This is rather straight foreword, yet we offer the following commentary. As we know balaam was hired to place a curse on Israel. HaShem told him, (in my words mind you) Don't even try it buckwheat. Now go tell Balak this. So what we see is HaShem informing Balaam that He will not change His mind, what haShem said shows us who he is. From this passage one must see the HaShem is not like man kind. He doesn't change His words, promises, or anything when the wind blows the other way.
Psa 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
David here is seen as giving HaShem prase by some. No matter how one looks at this, if we follow the idea that every word in Scripture is true, what do we see? We should see that HaShem hasn't change at lest up to this point in the Word.
Mal 3:6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Once a gain with clear intent we find HaShem letting us know He doesn't change. As made clear here, if He did, the people of Israel wouldn't be here today. yet it is with joy, and gratitude I can say they are here.
Why Joy? Their being here, and in their land, shows that we can trust all that HaShem has said.
Why gratitude? The people of Israel have had more than 4000 years to seek the truth of the Word. If one looks at their history, in how they treat, study, and learn, it is clear they hold a better understanding of their Bible than we ever have. to study with a Rabbi, may seem a bit odd to some. Yet it was doing just that has helped to shape our understanding. Does this mean that we agree 100% with every thing they may say? Not even. In fact, it was only due to the respect shown them, that they willing opened their doors.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Now I know I have opened this door before, yet once more I will do so. Yeshua, according to the first chapter of John, is HaShem. that is if we trust every word of scripture.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
So why should we understand this? If HaShem changed, then little of what we think we know can be 100% true of Him. This would place not only our faith in question, also our salvation would be placed in question.
Do we wish to follow blindly a faith based on even one change in a King that doesn't stand by His every word? I know I don't. As a well respected Rabbi once explained it, (again not his exact words) . If HaShem openly change His mind, how can anything said from Him ever be trusted?
Now this was posted as a lead up to what comes next. I do hope that you will keep this post in mind as you follow this thread from here out.
I also hope you really read it for what it has to say, and not chop it up to seem as though it is saying something it isn't.
Until next time, I pray that we can find truth. Not your truth, or ours. Rather the truth as given in the Word. Trust this, we will be getting into the vary passages I have asked others to explain in post #579. I do find it sad that none have even tried.

 

[Rainrider]

For anyone, this is a daunting task. For the young believer, it's overwhelming. For the mature believer, it's in process. God doesn't reveal everything at once. Otherwise, our brains would meltdown.
The Bible is a book consisting of 66 books, written over 1500 odd years by a myriad of writers in a number of languages. Added to that, it has been translated multiple times from multiple sources. It also contains a variety of writing styles and uses of language and the thoughts of an infinite mind.
I believe most Christians are making earnest attempts to do as you propose. Most desire truth in their inward parts. But we all are hindered by our finite minds, prejudices, and errant teachings. A site such as this is an excellent way to expand our understanding and come to a fuller knowledge of truth. I would posit that the greatest hindrance to knowledge isn't our lack of effort, but our lack of humility.
So it's a noble goal you have set. But one none of us will fully attain. This doesn't mean we leave the task. Rather, we ought to lower ourselves and learn from others.

Yet as some wish to portray themselves as knowing scripture so well, they must at lest have some understanding. You see I learned long ago, that if one is unwilling to state their understanding, there is no way to learn. As is clear in my post, I lay it all open. I know that I am not always 100% right, and many a person has shown me something I missed.
My study with the rabbi's I have known, has led me to understand many things I once thought I know were wrong. Yet there could be no space for growth if we simply over look a direct question.
For the words of many on here would indicate the understanding of scholars. Not the kind to back down from answering a direct question.
You see I once followed the same understanding as those I now challenge. I held little true understanding of those teachings, and simply followed blindly the things told to me. Then after being honest with my self, I started to ask much the same things I do on here. I found it sad that all I got from the leaders of the church's that I got much the same response as I do here. No real answers, just being accused of things that had no basses in fact. Much as what I face on here.
If anyone wishes to taken seriously, they must face the hard questions, as we have done on our end. to simply ignore, and leave unanswered a post like #579, can be seen in many ways. Not one of them are flattering.
So if you truly wish to taken seriously, would it not be prudent to address the things you assert are wrong? I didn't come on here to be acused of things I never said, or even implied. That, as we both know is uncalled for, unjust, and the work of a spirit that isn't from HaShem.

 

[Rainrider]

my response was to where you said you don't want anyone to think we are brothers.

do you consider yourself a Christian?

do you consider anyone who believes what is written, that through the Messiah they are not under the Law, to be a non-Christian?

do you disagree with the beotherhood/sisterhood of the saints?

In all truth, NO I am born again believer. Now can you give a direct reply to post #579

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I came so close to posting something that I may have regretted later down the road. The following is a revised version of that post.
I came to this forum seeking answers. I found out so much about today's religion that explains a lot.
First I found that it seems we have a following of church doctrine over the True Word. As has been made clear in almost every thread I opened. As if your church doctrine holds more truth.

Not too sure what you mean by this. The church doctrines foundation is the Word. The two can't be separated. In fact that is why the hymns use to be so important, because they were about the church doctrines. I would say the issue today is people don't believe church doctrine.

Second, it seems that being a true follower of the True Word, must be shunned at all cost.
The True Word is clear on this, and the words made me ask. Do I truly know? Or am I following what tickles the ear? 2Tim. 4:3-4
Not an exact quote mind you. However it does convey the same idea, and understanding.

Not sure what that comment means, can you explain?

As not many people on here has the spirit of worrier as the Word is clear we are called to be, or has the fortitude to even try, I feel for you all. You will be in my prayers in hopes that HaShem, or Yahovah will find a way to lead you to truth. His Truth.

Actually the Word tells us to put our faith and trust in him and not to worry.

 

[Cameron143]

Yet as some wish to portray themselves as knowing scripture so well, they must at lest have some understanding. You see I learned long ago, that if one is unwilling to state their understanding, there is no way to learn. As is clear in my post, I lay it all open. I know that I am not always 100% right, and many a person has shown me something I missed.
My study with the rabbi's I have known, has led me to understand many things I once thought I know were wrong. Yet there could be no space for growth if we simply over look a direct question.
For the words of many on here would indicate the understanding of scholars. Not the kind to back down from answering a direct question.
You see I once followed the same understanding as those I now challenge. I held little true understanding of those teachings, and simply followed blindly the things told to me. Then after being honest with my self, I started to ask much the same things I do on here. I found it sad that all I got from the leaders of the church's that I got much the same response as I do here. No real answers, just being accused of things that had no basses in fact. Much as what I face on here.
If anyone wishes to taken seriously, they must face the hard questions, as we have done on our end. to simply ignore, and leave unanswered a post like #579, can be seen in many ways. Not one of them are flattering.
So if you truly wish to taken seriously, would it not be prudent to address the things you assert are wrong? I didn't come on here to be acused of things I never said, or even implied. That, as we both know is uncalled for, unjust, and the work of a spirit that isn't from HaShem.

If someone wants to be heard they should speak truth with authority. Truth comes with study and revelation. Authority comes from God. When one speaks with authority, the resounding truth will captivate your audience.

 

[Rainrider]

Not too sure what you mean by this. The church doctrines foundation is the Word. The two can't be separated. In fact that is why the hymns use to be so important, because they were about the church doctrines. I would say the issue today is people don't believe church doctrine.



Not sure what that comment means, can you explain?




Actually the Word tells us to put our faith and trust in him and not to worry.

To which church doctrine do you refer? With well over 1000 out there, many standing in conflict with the other how can that be truth?

Your second question. The Word is clear that we will be shunned, and persecuted just as Yeshua had been. At times by others that study the same word as we do. Don't think that's true, please read the whole thread.

Scripture also tells us to spread His Word of truth. In todays world that means being bold, a worrier as it were.

 

[Rainrider]

If someone wants to be heard they should speak truth with authority. Truth comes with study and revelation. Authority comes from God. When one speaks with authority, the resounding truth will captivate your audience.

Does doing this require making false accusations? No.
Can one speak with authority, when they simply don't speak to things paced before them? No.
Can one speak with authority, and remain humble? YES
Admitting that one can be wrong show integrity, not a lake of understanding.
By the way, are you going to reply to post #579?

 

[Cameron143]

Does doing this require making false accusations? No.
Can one speak with authority, when they simply don't speak to things paced before them? No.
Can one speak with authority, and remain humble? YES
Admitting that one can be wrong show integrity, not a lake of understanding.
By the way, are you going to reply to post #579?

I did reply to it. My request for simplicity is what is driving our discussion. You did simplify your purpose, but I still don’t understand the point you are making with the verses. Can you put your understanding of all those verses into a sentence or two?

 

[Rainrider]

I did reply to it. My request for simplicity is what is driving our discussion. You did simplify your purpose, but I still don’t understand the point you are making with the verses. Can you put your understanding of all those verses into a sentence or two?

Let me try this way.
I am looking for what some see as contradictory passage to placed into context with the ones some seem to think are misunderstood.

 

[Cameron143]

Let me try this way.
I am looking for what some see as contradictory passage to placed into context with the ones some seem to think are misunderstood.

Excellent. And I appreciate the lengths you have gone to for us to arrive at this point.
So I am assuming the contradictory passage is Matthew 5:17-18. In what ways do you believe the other passages seem to contradict the original passage?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

If I may ask, ARE YOU? I see no way to come up with that from my post.

Is not saying "We are not bor's. so please don't tell others we are" taking a stab at the Jews?

 

[Rainrider]

Off script.
As we work to find the truth of weather HaShem changes, we must look at some other topics. Got ya, I am not talking of the Law, rather prophecy. You see, if prophecy is being fulfilled in our world today, that was given long before Yeshua walked this earth, then it should be a clear sign HaShem is still holding up His Word. Even if said Word was given before Sinai.
Yes I know prophecy really isn't something one can undertake in a single post. That is if we are going to look at every one given. So we have picked just one for this post. Israel, and the Diaspora.
Deu 28:36¶The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
take my advice and read the following 3 verses as well.
As we know, Israel was removed from the Land in or around 71 A.D. by the Romans. For the next 1877 years or so, the Hebrew people lived in a land that was not theirs, and at times forced to denounce their faith. The Inquisition comes to mind. Although I know there were more than just that. As you read in the next few passages, many things come to mind. The Black plague, was blamed on them, lies were told about their customs. I am not sure how many of you remember the old tail of them making Matzah with blood from babies, (I hope I got that spelling right) The holocaust also comes to mind as well. So it is clear that this has came to pass. After Yeshua gave His life for our sin.
In the next prophecy that is born from the above we find.
Zep 3:20At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
If we recall history, it was in 1948 that Israel became a nation, over night. Just as we read in,
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Psa 107:3And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
As some may recall this did, and still is in fulfillment. So how will He do this?
Isa 40:31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Some say this doesn't apply to the return of Israel. Yet when one thinks back to Ethiopian Jews, being flown in by plain, it does. In fact one plan carried 1088 people at one time. In all this operation brought home 14,325 Ethiopian Jews in 36 hours. If you wish to fact check this, it was called Operation Solomon.

 

[Rainrider]

Is not saying "We are not bor's. so please don't tell others we are" taking a stab at the Jews?

No, as I in no way even hinted at my Jewish brothers.