The Redeemer come to or from Zion & do the Israelites have an everlasting convent or will it be taken away?

[TMS]

Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

70 weeks were given to the Jews and then the message went to the Gentiles.

 

[TMS]

70 weeks or 70 x7 = 490 days
A day for a year = 490 years.
From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah was 69 weeks.
The starting event was a decree from Persian King Artaxerxes authorizing God’s people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree, found in Ezra chapter 7, was issued in 457 bc—the seventh year of the king (verse 7)—and was implemented in the autumn

Mathematical calculations show that moving ahead 483 (69 × 7= 483) years from the fall of 457 bc reaches the fall of ad 27. (Note: There is no year 0.) The word “Messiah” includes the meaning of “anointed” (John 1:41, margin). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38) at His baptism (Luke 3:21, 22). His anointing took place in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), which was ad 27. And to think that the prediction was made more than 500 years before!

So far the prophesy is prefect...

 

[Nehemiah6]

70 weeks were given to the Jews and then the message went to the Gentiles.

That is incorrect.

Seventy weeks were given to the Jews but only 69 weeks were fulfilled. It is only after the 70th week is fulfilled that Christ will bring in everlasting righteousness upon the earth, and also fulfil everything in verse 24. This is the ultimate goal:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [the Jews] and upon thy holy city, [Jerusalem]
[1] to finish the transgression,
[2] and to make an end of sins,
[3] and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6] and to anoint the most Holy.

All this happens when Christ establishes His Kingdom on earth after His Second Coming.

 

[TMS]

Just the last week of the 70 weeks of Dan 9.

Jesus was “cut off” or crucified “in the middle of the week,” which is three and a half years after His anointing—or the spring of ad 31. Please notice that the gospel is revealed in verse 26: “After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.”
After His ministry of three and a half years ended, Jesus confirmed the covenant through His disciples (Hebrews 2:3). He sent them first to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5, 6) because His chosen people still had three and a half years remaining of their 490-year opportunity to repent as a nation.
Stephen, a righteous deacon, was publicly stoned in ad 34. From that date onward, the Jews, because they collectively rejected Jesus and God’s plan, could no longer be God’s chosen people or nation. Instead, God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as spiritual Jews. They have become His chosen people—“heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:27–29). Spiritual Jews, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Romans 2:28, 29).

 

[TMS]

That is incorrect.

Seventy weeks were given to the Jews but only 69 weeks were fulfilled. It is only after the 70th week is fulfilled that Christ will bring in everlasting righteousness upon the earth, and also fulfil everything in verse 24. This is the ultimate goal:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [the Jews] and upon thy holy city, [Jerusalem]
[1] to finish the transgression,
[2] and to make an end of sins,
[3] and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6] and to anoint the most Holy.

All this happens when Christ establishes His Kingdom on earth after His Second Coming.

When Jesus comes we will anoint Jesus as king of kings.
The jews could have anointed him as the messiah but they didn't. They failed .

Your teaching futurism and it was invented by false teaches

 

[TMS]

The futurist scheme, was first, or nearly first, propounded about the year 1585 by the Jesuit Ribera; as the fittest one to turn aside the Protestant application of the Apocalyptic prophecy from the Church of Rome. Its general characteristic is to view the whole Apocalypse as mostly all still future: the Israel depicted in it being the literal Israel; the temple, a literal rebuilt Jewish temple at Jerusalem; and the Antichrist, or Apocalyptic Beast under his last head, a personal infidel Antichrist, fated to reign and triumph over the saints for 3 1/2 years, until Christ's coming shall destroy him.

This false teaching invented by a Jesuit is very popular today.

 

[TMS]

There is nothing in the prophesy that states we should divide the last week by 2000 years.

 

[Moses_Young]

Funny how the bad doctrine of the 40's and 50's still has sway over so many. It's so clear in the scriptures yet... here we are.

By design. The bad doctrine was, in my view, a plan to weaken the church in preparation for these times today.

 

[Needevidence]

Just the last week of the 70 weeks of Dan 9.

Jesus was “cut off” or crucified “in the middle of the week,” which is three and a half years after His anointing—or the spring of ad 31. Please notice that the gospel is revealed in verse 26: “After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.”
After His ministry of three and a half years ended, Jesus confirmed the covenant through His disciples (Hebrews 2:3). He sent them first to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5, 6) because His chosen people still had three and a half years remaining of their 490-year opportunity to repent as a nation.
Stephen, a righteous deacon, was publicly stoned in ad 34. From that date onward, the Jews, because they collectively rejected Jesus and God’s plan, could no longer be God’s chosen people or nation. Instead, God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as spiritual Jews. They have become His chosen people—“heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:27–29). Spiritual Jews, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Romans 2:28, 29).

So could this imply exactly that that it was taken from the Jews and given to another nation;

Matt 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Needevidence]

Wow, this may be the longest title in CC history. Romans 11 says yes, so that's it.

Yes, but was Paul not quoting Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion. So does Hebrew 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion. (most people would say Paul wrote Hebrews)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, but was Paul not quoting Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion. So does Hebrew 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion.

We must not confuse Zion on earth with Zion in Heaven (shown in Hebrews). Christ will come to Zion on earth, which is Jerusalem.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:2-4)

As you can see Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives are clearly identified here, and this is a reference to the battle of Armageddon. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The deliverer / Redeemer come to Zion or from Zion & do the Israelites have an everlasting convent or will it be taken away?

Come to or from Zion?

Roman 11:26: And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

Hebrew 12:22 - But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Do the Israelites have a everlasting convent - even when Jesus returns

Gen 17:8 - Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Matt 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

“but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If that’s true and Zion is the heavenly jerusslem the he came from Zion

“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:23‬ ‭

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And he returned to Zion

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so this is actually in heaven before Gods throne in zion the heavenly Jerusalem

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders this is what’s described when John enters heaven in chapter 4)

and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth….( they were already on earth before this and were redeemed ) : for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is Zion is this place those who lived on earth forst have a promised land later

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus came from heaven before his birth , and went to heaven after his resurrection zion is the heavenly City of God it isnt on earth

 

[Aaron56]

Zion is already here. It is a heavenly place NOT because it resides in heaven but because of its origin. "Heavenly" is an adjective that defines the nature of Zion.

Like Christ (because He is our life and very being) we may sit both in the earth and in heaven.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."

The spiritual is the manifold reality of God. What is seen in time and space is meant to point to the spiritual reality. When this was written:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Distinction between the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem needed to be made. The nature of one differs from the other.

For example: this will never be written about the heavenly Jerusalem:

Then I took the cup from the Lord’s hand, and made all the nations drink, to whom the Lord had sent me: Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and its princes, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, a hissing, and a curse, as it is this day..."

and in the New Testament

[This is Jesus speaking] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ "

Earthly Jerusalem pointed to the heavenly Jerusalem that endures and will never be cursed. BOTH are available for anyone to walk in: one may be entered by the flesh the other may only be entered by faith in Christ. The appearing of Christ ended any benefit to the natural lineage of Abraham. Now, only by faith can anyone inherit the promises of God.

 

[Aaron56]

@Pilgrimshope highlights a good point: there is no place for the Son of Man to lay His head on earth. Conversely, there is no "home" in the earth for the spiritual sons of God.

Peter, often writing to the believers in Christ who were Jewish by birth wrote this:

"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires..."

There is no appeal to their natural heritage: if one is an alien and in the world they have no earthly home. This is consistent with the believers, even if they are Jews by birth, being a part of heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Zion is already here. It is a heavenly place NOT because it resides in heaven but because of its origin. "Heavenly" is an adjective that defines the nature of Zion.

Like Christ (because He is our life and very being) we may sit both in the earth and in heaven.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."

The spiritual is the manifold reality of God. What is seen in time and space is meant to point to the spiritual reality. When this was written:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Distinction between the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem needed to be made. The nature of one differs from the other.

For example: this will never be written about the heavenly Jerusalem:

Then I took the cup from the Lord’s hand, and made all the nations drink, to whom the Lord had sent me: Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and its princes, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, a hissing, and a curse, as it is this day..."

and in the New Testament

[This is Jesus speaking] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ "

Earthly Jerusalem pointed to the heavenly Jerusalem that endures and will never be cursed. BOTH are available for anyone to walk in: one may be entered by the flesh the other may only be entered by faith in Christ. The appearing of Christ ended any benefit to the natural lineage of Abraham. Now, only by faith can anyone inherit the promises of God.

Brother consider what Jesus is saying

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭

And then consider this

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then consider things like this

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure I’m understanding are you saying heaven isn’t an actual place where Gods kingdom is ? That Jesus didn’t ascend into the heavens and ge won’t actually return like he said at the end of this world ? I honestly not following your thinking there can you sort of tell me if these scriptures I shared here for i to what your saying ?

a specific question did Jesus actually rise bodily from the dead and did his disciples stand in a crowd and watch him ascend up into the clouds u til he disappeared out of thier sight ? And where do all of e heavenly angels and visitors come from and go to in the Bible ?


Brother heaven is a real place we’re just beneaeth it because of the flesh and can’t see or understand or perceive any of it . Angels are actual real beings Jesus is actually on a throne in heaven and will return one day like this

He’s going to actually return and gather us

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even in the Old Testament brother He was in heaven observing the eerth and interacting with man through heavenly visitors

“The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

From the place of his habitation

he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭33:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have the holy ghost our companion but we aren’t home yet heaven is real but we’re below it we can’t see it but it’s more real than earth it’s a spiritual world we’re blinded by the flesh and aren’t yet able to see by the spirit

I think there’s an element to what your saying but I don’t think your grasping from the beginning creation had two parts one for earthly beings and one for heavenly beings

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice heaven is described as Gods habitation throughout ? Look at what happened in creation both heaven and earth

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-10, 12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we can sometimes not believe something or not actually see it and then we sort of over think it but faith is the hearing and believing

i believe the Bible clearly supports heaven as an actual habitation for spiritual beings and the earth as mankind’s and the created things habitation. Two realms of one creation that became seperated by man’s dominion of sin and death on earth corrupting it and in the end God is going to bring the two realms back together again

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we’re told some would begin to doubt in the latter days

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which is why Peter explained there the earth will Indeed be totally destroyed by fire and we are promised a new creation that isn’t corrupt where we will dwell with God and see his face like Jesus promised in the gospel

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@Pilgrimshope highlights a good point: there is no place for the Son of Man to lay His head on earth. Conversely, there is no "home" in the earth for the spiritual sons of God.

Peter, often writing to the believers in Christ who were Jewish by birth wrote this:

"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires..."

There is no appeal to their natural heritage: if one is an alien and in the world they have no earthly home. This is consistent with the believers, even if they are Jews by birth, being a part of heavenly Jerusalem.

yes brother amen

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first ( the natural ) earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, ( Zion ) coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Part way through prophets he began talking about this new creation

“I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it?

I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:3, 5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He began speaking of a heavenly invite where he would save men into heaven until he retired all things to perfection creating a new beginning for all creation

Right now the earth is a wicked and evil place it’s ruled by the spiritual wickedness Paul explains we’re at war with and Peter tells us the devil is wandering about seeking to destroy us on earth .

When a believer dies in the lord thier spirit goes to be with him in the heavenly kingdom until the restoration and new earth by which our bodies will be restored

 

[Aaron56]

Brother consider what Jesus is saying

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭

And then consider this

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then consider things like this

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure I’m understanding are you saying heaven isn’t an actual place where Gods kingdom is ? That Jesus didn’t ascend into the heavens and ge won’t actually return like he said at the end of this world ? I honestly not following your thinking there can you sort of tell me if these scriptures I shared here for i to what your saying ?

a specific question did Jesus actually rise bodily from the dead and did his disciples stand in a crowd and watch him ascend up into the clouds u til he disappeared out of thier sight ? And where do all of e heavenly angels and visitors come from and go to in the Bible ?


Brother heaven is a real place we’re just beneaeth it because of the flesh and can’t see or understand or perceive any of it . Angels are actual real beings Jesus is actually on a throne in heaven and will return one day like this

He’s going to actually return and gather us

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even in the Old Testament brother He was in heaven observing the eerth and interacting with man through heavenly visitors

“The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

From the place of his habitation

he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭33:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have the holy ghost our companion but we aren’t home yet heaven is real but we’re below it we can’t see it but it’s more real than earth it’s a spiritual world we’re blinded by the flesh and aren’t yet able to see by the spirit

I think there’s an element to what your saying but I don’t think your grasping from the beginning creation had two parts one for earthly beings and one for heavenly beings

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice heaven is described as Gods habitation throughout ? Look at what happened in creation both heaven and earth

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-10, 12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we can sometimes not believe something or not actually see it and then we sort of over think it but faith is the hearing and believing

i believe the Bible clearly supports heaven as an actual habitation for spiritual beings and the earth as mankind’s and the created things habitation. Two realms of one creation that became seperated by man’s dominion of sin and death on earth corrupting it and in the end God is going to bring the two realms back together again

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we’re told some would begin to doubt in the latter days

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which is why Peter explained there the earth will Indeed be totally destroyed by fire and we are promised a new creation that isn’t corrupt where we will dwell with God and see his face like Jesus promised in the gospel

Yes, and God also "inhabits the praises of His people". Does that mean He builds a house, somehow, within the sound of our music? No, of course not.

The Kingdom of Heaven is like the Animal and Plant kingdoms: it is a bastion of authority defined by certain standards.

The Kingdom Heaven IS an actual place. The Heaven of God is a place where there is no corruption. But, because it is spiritual, it transcends time and place. Like God. It is a certain standard of being alive.

The Kingdom of God is not a castle in the sky (like the Roman church made it out to be) it is a place obtained by righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. That's how we can walk in the Kingdom while being here on the earth. We are, like Jesus, the vessels by which God sends the Kingdom to wherever He wants. He is the One who said "the Kingdom of God is within you." This is not some metaphysical play on words. He was the Kingdom in their midst: a man whose father was the Living God and who, by grace, was able to bring the rule of His Father into the earth.

In the Kingdom of Heaven, Father and Son defines our standard. It is a way of life.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Kingdom Heaven IS an actual place.

Or is it the rule and authority of God and Christ over all things? Yes, Heaven is an ACTUAL PLACE. But the Kingdom of Heaven is not.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Yes, but was Paul not quoting Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion. So does Hebrew 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion. (most people would say Paul wrote Hebrews)

So your point is?

 

[Aaron56]

Or is it the rule and authority of God and Christ over all things? Yes, Heaven is an ACTUAL PLACE. But the Kingdom of Heaven is not.

Correct. It can be said, wherever the Lord rules, there is the Kingdom of Heaven.