How can one learn?

[posthuman]

As you wish. However that has been shown in a way that has stood up as of yet. At lest not when placed in context with the whole of scripture. Oh and I am still waiting for you to use just Mat. 5:17-18 to show that. Remember I have been asking you to explain thouse passages, by using JUST THEM for some time now.

that Christians aren't under the Law of the Sinai covenant with the nation Israel hasn't been shown yet??

bro it is explicitly stated as fact in several scriptures with no room for misinterpretation.

 

[posthuman]

Some think other wise. Although as we know Cain did know. If he hadn't he may have asnsweer HaShem and said I killed him, rather than, "Am I my brothers keeper?"
Beside we know the Word doesn't record ever thing ever said or done, if it did, we would need the whole earth, moon, and many other plaints to hold it all.

some think wrongly.

but in Galatians the scripture explicitly states that the Law did not come until 435 years after Abraham.

so some ignore scripture while claiming to 'take all of it into account'

 

[posthuman]

Yet I don't see it that way. you see, anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law.

then there is no salvation, for all sin, and "there is no more sacrifice for sin" (Hebrews 10:26)

thus your doctrine makes Christ's death useless, see Galatians 2:21

 

[PaulThomson]

I came so close to posting something that I may have regretted later down the road. The following is a revised version of that post.
I came to this forum seeking answers. I found out so much about today's religion that explains a lot.
First I found that it seems we have a following of church doctrine over the True Word. As has been made clear in almost every thread I opened. As if your church doctrine holds more truth.
Second, it seems that being a true follower of the True Word, must be shunned at all cost.
The True Word is clear on this, and the words made me ask. Do I truly know? Or am I following what tickles the ear? 2Tim. 4:3-4
Not an exact quote mind you. However it does convey the same idea, and understanding.
As not many people on here has the spirit of worrier as the Word is clear we are called to be, or has the fortitude to even try, I feel for you all. You will be in my prayers in hopes that HaShem, or Yahovah will find a way to lead you to truth. His Truth.
Yeshua when he called out the Pharisees may well have been speaking to religious leaders of today. Again not an exact quote. What he said not an easy thing to swallow.
He called the sons of Satan, hypocrites, teaching man's doctrine as if it was HaShems own. Mat.15:7-9
What so many on here wish to do is push away any that see things in a different light. Wishing to persent themselves as knowing more than they really do. Yet when pressed on a topic, they say they know so well, can't or won't even try to make the other see how they are wrong. It's kind of like telling some one they were speeding, when they were doing 35 in a 40mile an hour zone. You say it, yet when asked your only reply is, Because I said so. Ok not in those words, yet by not engaging on a topic you brought forth, you may as well say it that way.
So now I ask you, if you wish to be the teacher you are in your own mind, why hide from it?
Rather than turn to name calling, belittlement, or be dismissive, why not engage? It gives you the chance to teach, and learn. Yet on here it as though the one that stands a lone prevails simply by asking how your teaching is in context with the Whole of the Word. As for myself, I welcome any challenge to my understanding. As it opens the door to seeing how I may be wrong. That in turns makes me a better teacher, and student.
What it doesn't do is show how right I am. You see once we take on the thinking of ME, MY CHURCH, and so on, we leave the True Word behind in favor of my thoughts, my church, and so on.
As true followers, we should have a hunger to learn, and a thirst for truth. Though for many the quest for understanding stops at the door of their church. They don't study the word, and many don't read it at all. Oh they have it with them, and may even open it when the pastor gives a passage. Then they just blindly follow what ever is told to them.
Once more, in closing, I came here to learn more than I think I know. I came to seek truth. Something that is not forthcoming in a place that one would think it should be. If one follows what the Word truly says, they are called names, belittled, and so on. Yet nothing of substance is ever offered up.
I have seen people say they know the Word, and have mesmerized most of the Bible, or N.T. That's all good, if you have a true understanding of it. Yet is made pointless if you know it, and don't follow it. So will someone please explain to me, why do say you hold more understanding, yet are so unwilling to debate most topics, when you see something wrong with a teaching or understanding?

I am always hoping to find believers who are willing to closely analyse their proof-texts and are willing to admit the limits of what can be categorically asserted from them.

Too many of us force doctrines into particular texts that we want to find because we have already invested so much time in propounding them and defending them from "heretics". Can we ever learn anything or be corrected by the Holy Spirit if we approach biblical discussions with that attitude?

 

[PaulThomson]

Yet I don't see it that way. you see, anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law

Which scripture are you referring to here, Rainrider?

 

[Rainrider]

I am always hoping to find believers who are willing to closely analyse their proof-texts and are willing to admit the limits of what can be categorically asserted from them.

Too many of us force doctrines into particular texts that we want to find because we have already invested so much time in propounding them and defending them from "heretics". Can we ever learn anything or be corrected by the Holy Spirit if we approach biblical discussions with that attitude?

Sadly no. When wishes to defend a doctrine over what the Word truly has to say, they willing blind them selves. There are times when it may seem that is what everyone is doing, yet as time goes on, some do see something wrong with their understanding, and change their hearts to seek truth and not man made doctrine. Some would be shocked to find out the Bible is not a cut and dry document. It is a living document, and meets us where we are. It is up to us to grow, and learn. Sadly many wish to remain stagnate, holding to what makes them feel good about them selves.
As we found in our study, (not on here) it takes time for the Spirit of truth to change ones heart, and mind. It isn't a thing we can do, it can only be done when one is willing to hear the voice of HaShem, through the His Spirit.

 

[Rainrider]

Which scripture are you referring to here, Rainrider?

That can become a long list. Paul speaks of being under the Law, and being free of the law. When one is free of the Law they are not under it's condemnation. Yet when one does fall under the Law they are under it's condemnation. We spent close too 3 years on that topic, and have found this to the case. Don't get me wrong, we all understand we can be wrong, Yet if one is to keep Paul from being in direct conflict with himself, how we see his writings must change for many people.
So to answer you in plain words. No one passage shows this, rather a open mind, placing scripture in context with scripture. We did this by first looking closely at the words of Yeshua, (knowing that He is the untimely authority). What we found changed our lives for the better, and form deep in side our own hearts.

 

[Rainrider]

then there is no salvation, for all sin, and "there is no more sacrifice for sin" (Hebrews 10:26)

thus your doctrine makes Christ's death useless, see Galatians 2:21

If that's what you believe so be it.

 

[Rainrider]

some think wrongly.

but in Galatians the scripture explicitly states that the Law did not come until 435 years after Abraham.

so some ignore scripture while claiming to 'take all of it into account'

As we have seen, unless they think like you they have to be wrong.

 

[Rainrider]

that Christians aren't under the Law of the Sinai covenant with the nation Israel hasn't been shown yet??

bro it is explicitly stated as fact in several scriptures with no room for misinterpretation.

We are not bor's. so please don't tell others we are.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

We are not bor's. so please don't tell others we are.

Racist against the Jews much?

 

[posthuman]

We are not bor's. so please don't tell others we are.

you don't believe the divine Christ came, gave Himself to once and for all atone for our sins, reconciling us to Himself, and that He rise the third day, ascended to heaven from whence He came, to prepare a place for us - and tgat He will come again to gather us to Himself and to judge the world?

because i certainly do.

 

[posthuman]

As we have seen, unless they think like you they have to be wrong.

you said some believe the Law was given to Adam.

scripture says the Law came hundreds of years after Abraham, through Moses, seven sevens plus one after being brought out of Egypt.

this isn't the matter of opinion you are trying to frame it as.

 

[PaulThomson]

That can become a long list. Paul speaks of being under the Law, and being free of the law. When one is free of the Law they are not under it's condemnation. Yet when one does fall under the Law they are under it's condemnation. We spent close too 3 years on that topic, and have found this to the case. Don't get me wrong, we all understand we can be wrong, Yet if one is to keep Paul from being in direct conflict with himself, how we see his writings must change for many people.
So to answer you in plain words. No one passage shows this, rather a open mind, placing scripture in context with scripture. We did this by first looking closely at the words of Yeshua, (knowing that He is the untimely authority). What we found changed our lives for the better, and form deep in side our own hearts.

You have no particular scripture/s that say/s "anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law" ?
It is just your own idea?

 

[Rainrider]

Racist against the Jews much?

If I may ask, ARE YOU? I see no way to come up with that from my post.

 

[Rainrider]

you don't believe the divine Christ came, gave Himself to once and for all atone for our sins, reconciling us to Himself, and that He rise the third day, ascended to heaven from whence He came, to prepare a place for us - and tgat He will come again to gather us to Himself and to judge the world?

because i certainly do.

You really don't read my post do you?

 

[Rainrider]

you said some believe the Law was given to Adam.

scripture says the Law came hundreds of years after Abraham, through Moses, seven sevens plus one after being brought out of Egypt.

this isn't the matter of opinion you are trying to frame it as.

You really need to read my post rather than just jump to assumptions.

 

[Rainrider]

You have no particular scripture/s that say/s "anytime a person sins, (and everyone does), they fall under the condemnation of the Law" ?
It is just your own idea?

Rom. 14:5, 1John 3:4, Now feel free to find a road of attack. It is what you many seem to do best on here, even if it means over looking the many post that say the exact opposite of your claims.

 

[Rainrider]

For any that wish to say I pit scripture against scripture, please fit the follow in context with the ones that follow them.
Keep in mind I have after some of you to do this almost from the start of this thread, and NOT 1 has even tried. I wonder why? Oh don't kid your self, I expect no reply to this, as it does seem to scare some to take a real look at the first passage.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Fit the following with this, keeping in mind that you will need to use the full passage and not just one word. After all by using only the word FULFIL, you leave a lot on the cuting floor. Like the whole meaning of the passage.
Lets make the first one easy.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Time for a change.
Please make the following context of this passage passage fit,

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
With the following.

Rom 3:19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

last but trust me not the lest. I would love to see your take on just one passage. Keep in mind you are to use the full passage, explain it word by word.

Gal 3:21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Now from here I am not going to act like many of you on here. I am simply going to post what come to mind when it does. So if you post something to me that isn't in line with any question I ask, don't expect a reply from me.

 

[Cameron143]

For any that wish to say I pit scripture against scripture, please fit the follow in context with the ones that follow them.
Keep in mind I have after some of you to do this almost from the start of this thread, and NOT 1 has even tried. I wonder why? Oh don't kid your self, I expect no reply to this, as it does seem to scare some to take a real look at the first passage.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Fit the following with this, keeping in mind that you will need to use the full passage and not just one word. After all by using only the word FULFIL, you leave a lot on the cuting floor. Like the whole meaning of the passage.
Lets make the first one easy.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Time for a change.
Please make the following context of this passage passage fit,

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
With the following.

Rom 3:19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

last but trust me not the lest. I would love to see your take on just one passage. Keep in mind you are to use the full passage, explain it word by word.

Gal 3:21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Now from here I am not going to act like many of you on here. I am simply going to post what come to mind when it does. So if you post something to me that isn't in line with any question I ask, don't expect a reply from me.

So...if we don't play by your rules you won't let us play with your ball? Seems to be a little different strategy than becoming all things to all people.
Be that as it may, I've tried to engage on a couple of occasions and, at this point, still don't know your point. Can you write in one sentence the point you are making?