How can one learn?
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real Salvation.
Romans 7:24-8:4
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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You make my point for me. He cannot lead in a place you shouldn't go. Galatians 5:16...Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...Thus, our focus should be on God, and not the law.
Read James 1 sometime and look at what leads to sin. We are enticed and allured to consider sin. Then we begin to think about it to the point of preoccupation. Because of the weakness of the flesh, we will eventually submit to it, and consummate the sin. Then comes the death or negative results of sin. Then comes the devastation in our lives, and the lives of those around us.
You, I, nor anyone else will, in this fallen flesh, overcome sin. Only as we walk in the Spirit will we not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Read James 1 sometime and look at what leads to sin. We are enticed and allured to consider sin. Then we begin to think about it to the point of preoccupation. Because of the weakness of the flesh, we will eventually submit to it, and consummate the sin. Then comes the death or negative results of sin. Then comes the devastation in our lives, and the lives of those around us.
You, I, nor anyone else will, in this fallen flesh, overcome sin. Only as we walk in the Spirit will we not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
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Again, you misunderstand what the Bible says is true of you. God doesn't grade on a curve. You are either walking in the Spirit or going to sin. There are only 2 options.
While striving against sin is awesome, it isn't trying to not sin, but seeking first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. His righteousness is practically obtained for us as He lives in us. We have no righteousness of our own...merely filthy rags.
While striving against sin is awesome, it isn't trying to not sin, but seeking first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. His righteousness is practically obtained for us as He lives in us. We have no righteousness of our own...merely filthy rags.
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Yet as we find
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
The idea of once saved always saved isn't real. As we know even those that have turned their life over sin. Unless your going to try and say it becomes imposible to sin, and as we know that simply isn't true.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
The idea of once saved always saved isn't real. As we know even those that have turned their life over sin. Unless your going to try and say it becomes imposible to sin, and as we know that simply isn't true.
It is only due to us knowing the Law that we know what sin is yes. Does the then force us into sin not even, or is the a sin of it's own, as has been hinted at many times on here? Again not even.
Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Off script again.
You know at some point one grows a bit wiry of others hinting at them being lost, even though that person knows in his heart, that their faith has lead them to an understand not wanted by most all that lead others to see them as lost. So from there it is time to take a close look at Yeshua, and how we are to walk in his foot steps.
1Co 11:1¶Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
So just did Paul mean by this? For most it is clear that Paul did his best to walk as Yeshua had shown us, not with out law rather with in the law. After all If Yeshua had stepped out side of the law just once, He simply couldn't be that perfect sacrifice for all man kind.
No amount of debate, rejection of facts, or wishing can ever change that. So we must ask ourselves, If Paul was going to tell us to follow in him, as he himself followed Yeshua, just how can he did he do this? Was by removing the Law, or teaching that it was not valid? You have all seen passage after passage posted on here making the claim of Paul saying the law was not for us. So lets now give a list of passages where Paul make the claim that the Law isn't sin, unholy, or removed. Keep in mind that by not teaching against the law Paul is saying that it is valid. We should also include any passage that stands in contrast with the teaching that the law has been diminished in any way.
Act 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
One would think that being a believer fits well with also flowing the Law. At lest here it seems to. Yet some wish to keep making it seem as though I am not a follower, as my intent to follow the law in their eyes has blinded me to Yeshua.
Act 21:24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Here we see Paul upholding the Law by paying for others to close their vow in accordance with the law.
Act 22:3I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Ho my Paul said the Perfect manner of the Law, how did that happen? Trust me I don't Paul was being 2 faced here, nor was he simply trying to save his own life, as we will see down the list.
Act 23:3Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Oh my, Paul using the Law to point out the wrong doing of the High Priest.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
So paul seems to have believed everything in the Law. If so why would we think he teaches against it?
Act 28:23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
So Paul used the Law in his teachings? How can use a thing to teach the truth, then say it don't follow that stuff?
Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So Paul said that keeping the Law is the way to be justified? How can that be when so many say he said the law only drages one away from Yeshua?
Rom 2:20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
We must note here that Paul is addressing the Jewish people. Not the gentile. It is when one lets their stand on the Law being valid become a boast, or should we say, prideful. That they become a dishonor to HaShem. Yet when one knows their sinful self holds no advantage, and they humble them self before HaShem asking forgiveness, they are not boastful.
Rom 2:26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Odd thing to say if he teaches that the law does us no good, and separates from HaShem.
Rom 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 4:15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
So are we free of the law? Nope for as we know not one man can keep the Law in every detail, there fore we are sinners. That would mean the Law is valid would it not?
Rom 7:12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Paul really didn't mean that ok. Ya right.
Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So Paul severed the Law of HaShem? hard to do if one also tells us it isn't any good for us.
Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
So the law holds righteousness, really?
Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
This seems a good place to stop for now. As you all know by now when you seek to show the wrong in the passages, you will find you are placing passage against passage. Now if you are willing to slow down a bit, so that the one person that is working on their own has a chance to address every post in detail, I would be more than happy to do so. Yet some how I don't see that happening. After all, in the past it has been clear that your wish is to remove me from this sight, and nothing more. Just as I sure that at one time you thought you had get ride of me. Oh don't look on this thread for that comment, it was not in this one. Although I am sure the one that made that comment knows full well it was made.
So how do any of the above fit with mat. 5:17-18. They show that even Paul understood the law was not removed.
You know at some point one grows a bit wiry of others hinting at them being lost, even though that person knows in his heart, that their faith has lead them to an understand not wanted by most all that lead others to see them as lost. So from there it is time to take a close look at Yeshua, and how we are to walk in his foot steps.
1Co 11:1¶Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
So just did Paul mean by this? For most it is clear that Paul did his best to walk as Yeshua had shown us, not with out law rather with in the law. After all If Yeshua had stepped out side of the law just once, He simply couldn't be that perfect sacrifice for all man kind.
No amount of debate, rejection of facts, or wishing can ever change that. So we must ask ourselves, If Paul was going to tell us to follow in him, as he himself followed Yeshua, just how can he did he do this? Was by removing the Law, or teaching that it was not valid? You have all seen passage after passage posted on here making the claim of Paul saying the law was not for us. So lets now give a list of passages where Paul make the claim that the Law isn't sin, unholy, or removed. Keep in mind that by not teaching against the law Paul is saying that it is valid. We should also include any passage that stands in contrast with the teaching that the law has been diminished in any way.
Act 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
One would think that being a believer fits well with also flowing the Law. At lest here it seems to. Yet some wish to keep making it seem as though I am not a follower, as my intent to follow the law in their eyes has blinded me to Yeshua.
Act 21:24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Here we see Paul upholding the Law by paying for others to close their vow in accordance with the law.
Act 22:3I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Ho my Paul said the Perfect manner of the Law, how did that happen? Trust me I don't Paul was being 2 faced here, nor was he simply trying to save his own life, as we will see down the list.
Act 23:3Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Oh my, Paul using the Law to point out the wrong doing of the High Priest.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
So paul seems to have believed everything in the Law. If so why would we think he teaches against it?
Act 28:23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
So Paul used the Law in his teachings? How can use a thing to teach the truth, then say it don't follow that stuff?
Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So Paul said that keeping the Law is the way to be justified? How can that be when so many say he said the law only drages one away from Yeshua?
Rom 2:20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
We must note here that Paul is addressing the Jewish people. Not the gentile. It is when one lets their stand on the Law being valid become a boast, or should we say, prideful. That they become a dishonor to HaShem. Yet when one knows their sinful self holds no advantage, and they humble them self before HaShem asking forgiveness, they are not boastful.
Rom 2:26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Odd thing to say if he teaches that the law does us no good, and separates from HaShem.
Rom 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 4:15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
So are we free of the law? Nope for as we know not one man can keep the Law in every detail, there fore we are sinners. That would mean the Law is valid would it not?
Rom 7:12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Paul really didn't mean that ok. Ya right.
Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So Paul severed the Law of HaShem? hard to do if one also tells us it isn't any good for us.
Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
So the law holds righteousness, really?
Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
This seems a good place to stop for now. As you all know by now when you seek to show the wrong in the passages, you will find you are placing passage against passage. Now if you are willing to slow down a bit, so that the one person that is working on their own has a chance to address every post in detail, I would be more than happy to do so. Yet some how I don't see that happening. After all, in the past it has been clear that your wish is to remove me from this sight, and nothing more. Just as I sure that at one time you thought you had get ride of me. Oh don't look on this thread for that comment, it was not in this one. Although I am sure the one that made that comment knows full well it was made.
So how do any of the above fit with mat. 5:17-18. They show that even Paul understood the law was not removed.
It's interesting that you chose that particular verse. This is a good example of why one should read an entire passage and not pull out a singular verse.
In verse 5 the Apostle speaks of the motions of sin. What is that? That is our fallen nature which is prone to sin. It lies dormant within us; that is, until we learn of sin (before the commandment). But when the commandment comes, or is made known to us, our sinful nature is stirred and we desire to do that which has become known to us.
In the case of Paul, it was covetousness. Notice what happened. He was alive without the law, but dead when the law entered in. That's how the law is the power of sin. And that's why it is only in the Spirit that we will not sin. The law is no longer there to revive sin in us. This is what it means to no longer be under the law. And this is why it is so important.
In verse 5 the Apostle speaks of the motions of sin. What is that? That is our fallen nature which is prone to sin. It lies dormant within us; that is, until we learn of sin (before the commandment). But when the commandment comes, or is made known to us, our sinful nature is stirred and we desire to do that which has become known to us.
In the case of Paul, it was covetousness. Notice what happened. He was alive without the law, but dead when the law entered in. That's how the law is the power of sin. And that's why it is only in the Spirit that we will not sin. The law is no longer there to revive sin in us. This is what it means to no longer be under the law. And this is why it is so important.
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your word games are simply invalid.
scripture is very clear: in Christ the believer has died so far as the law is concerned and is in no way whatsoever under it.
you can reject that all you want but it remains true. it is the gospel by which we are saved.
only unbelievers are under the Law, and the law condemns them.
scripture is very clear: in Christ the believer has died so far as the law is concerned and is in no way whatsoever under it.
you can reject that all you want but it remains true. it is the gospel by which we are saved.
only unbelievers are under the Law, and the law condemns them.
Romans 7:4
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
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