How can one learn?

[Rainrider]

I think the law is awesome. My warning is against trying to keep it. No one except Jesus can. So one who is truly desirous of keeping it should want Jesus to keep it in them. Incredibly, that's what the new covenant offers, but very few actually find it.

So you think living a sinful life is beter than doing our best to walk in the example Yeshua left us? After all He did say to keep His commandments. I would rather show my Faithfulness by trying, rather than just say, "It's too hard forget it."

 

[Rainrider]

sure has been a spate of law observance advocates parading through here recently. the current ones don't talk amongst themselves like the previous ones did as was pointed out. that is interesting.

you'd think they'd at least pat each other on the back a little.

Funny you would say that. Most people I know that are willing to say the law is valid today, also understand that we don't need anyone to lift us up. HaShem holds our rewords for us. So what need is there for mans approval?

 

[Rainrider]

There is no way to show love outside of the Spirit. The law was a failed experiment for all but Jesus. The law brings death; the Spirit quickens.

Sin brings death not the law.

 

[evyaniy]

So you think living a sinful life is beter than doing our best to walk in the example Yeshua left us? After all He did say to keep His commandments. I would rather show my Faithfulness by trying, rather than just say, "It's too hard forget it."

why do you make inflammatory statements accusing others of meaning something they did not say?

 

[Rainrider]

Why does man make vehicles with the capability of speeds that exceed 100 mph while no one is allowed by law to drive that fast on public highways or roads? Lol! Man is so silly!

Have you ever asked yourself… What is the “purpose” of the law to drive 65?

What is the “purpose” of God’s Law?

What is the “purpose” of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God - God’s Law of Grace?

I hope my rhetorical questions are not causing any confusion… I ask them simply to cause you to ponder…

God gives Adam and Eve 1 Law - do not eat if the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet, God puts that tree in the garden accessible to them…. what is God’s “purpose” in doing this?

LOVE. God wants us to know Him and love Him… yet, for us to do so we MUST have a choice. Love without a choice is manipulation and not love at all.

God does NOT want robots. What is God REALLY seeking and wanting….

God gave us the power and authority to make our own choices and decisions in hopes we will choose to know and love Him because He knows and loves us.

The “purpose” of Law is not about obeying or disobeying, condemnation or no condemnation. Instead, the “purpose” of Law is to give us a choice to love or not to love.

LOL I love it, you go straight to the heart of it. So let me do my best to answer this from a Biblical perspective. After all I do agree man kind is silly.
Keep in mind as a man some of this may sound silly to you. There are times when I have had to drive with my foot to the floor. Once when a friend was hit by a ricochet, and the other one I remember is when a co-worker went down from H2S. When things like that come up, we are glad we can 100 or faster, after a life is in danger, and getting them to help isn't a game of staying with the the law.
I am a person that follows the LAW OF GRACE back to Adam and Eve. You see it was by HaShem's grace that man kind wasn't brought to an end right there. Just as we can see His grace in the flood, and so on down the line.
HaShem wish's us to come to Him willingly. He loves us all, and wants the best for us. Had he wanted us to walk in all that He said, and Love had nothing to with it, then He would made us to do only that. No freewill, no need for us to do so out of Love. Yet He gave us free will so that we would have the right to decide for our selves.
Free will. If mankind had nothing to chose from, there would be no free will. Ever take a good hard look at creation? You will find that almost everything has it's opposite. Light & dark, land & sea, male & female, so on.
You are right the Law is Love as I have said before. However are we not told that IF we love Him we will follow His commandments? So the law gives us a way to show our love for Him. Does He think we will ever walk in it with perfection? He knows full well we can't. He also knew and seen with His own eyes that under a system of physical action's the leaders will always turn it into something it was never intended to be. Although like the tree, He gave us a chance to show Him love. I have often wondered, had man not perverted His Torah, would we still have His temple?
I also thank you, as I was going to post on just that last night. Sadly things in the real world prevented it. So that will follow.

 

[Rainrider]

If this is a Nazarite vow, he did not complete it, because he was arrested. he made no sacrifice as the law required of this voluntary act.

As we know full well to say something didn't happen isn't necessarily true. The Word doesn't record ever action of anyone. If it had, there is now way anyone could read the full thing in one life time. So you assume paul didn't, you have nothing to back the idea that he didn't. However if one to look at what we are told, then the assumption that he did fits with his actions, and words.

 

[Rainrider]

being under the law of Christ is neither being under the law of the Sinai covenant with Israel nor is it being "lawless"

Not true. We are all under the law, as well as being under the laws that man kind has set down. However as Paul has said, we are not under the comdination of the Law. Big difference. After all if you sinned right now, you would be under the condemnation of the law. So the law is still in action, and working.

 

[Rainrider]

why do you make inflammatory statements accusing others of meaning something they did not say?

I asked a simple question. Did I say you said any of what was in my question? Didn't think so.

 

[Rainrider]

i.e. despite your insistence that we pretend the Bible isn't infinitely interconnected ((you get mad when i connect one part of the scripture to comment on another part; you accuse me of changing subjects because you apparently don't see how the scripture is one whole scripture even though you keep repeating the words - "we must look at scripture as a whole" - um... that means all. of scripture not one pet verse of yours in Matthew like Galatians doesn't matter... )),


.. do we need to take a much deeper look at what Hebrews says?

You have never seen me mad, and trust me, you don't want to.
As to your attempt to give an understanding of Mat. 5:17-18 when asked about that directly, by not not even try to look at just those 2 passages. Well that is up to you. However as I said, until you can, you always spend your time avoiding them. So what I am to think, do those 2 passage scare you, or is that they simply don't fit with the law gone thinking?

 

[evyaniy]

It foll

I asked a simple question. Did I say you said any of what was in my question? Didn't think so.

done talking with you. you did the same thing the other night with another post. it is duplicitous and inflammatory to accuse others of meaning something they did not say. It is not treating others as you would want to be treated yourself.

 

[posthuman]

As we know full well to say something didn't happen isn't necessarily true. The Word doesn't record ever action of anyone. If it had, there is now way anyone could read the full thing in one life time. So you assume paul didn't, you have nothing to back the idea that he didn't. However if one to look at what we are told, then the assumption that he did fits with his actions, and words.

that's well and good to say not everything is recorded, but certain facts are known:

• arrested before the end of the days.
• taken to Rome and eventually martyred.
• never returned to Jerusalem.

Acts 21:27-28​

Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all [men] everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."​

​

Numbers 6:13-15​

'Now this is the law of the Nazirite: When the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall be brought to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. And he shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb in its first year without blemish as a burnt offering, one ewe lamb in its first year without blemish as a sin offering, one ram without blemish as a peace offering, a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and their grain offering with their drink offerings.​

 

[posthuman]

Not true. We are all under the law

ahem.

Romans 7:1-6​

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to [her] husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of [her] husband. So then if, while [her] husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.​

​

However as Paul has said, we are not under the comdination of the Law. Big difference. After all if you sinned right now, you would be under the condemnation of the law. So the law is still in action, and working.

ahem.

Romans 6:14-15 ​

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! ​

 

[posthuman]

Not true. We are all under the law, as well as being under the laws that man kind has set down. However as Paul has said, we are not under the comdination of the Law. Big difference. After all if you sinned right now, you would be under the condemnation of the law. So the law is still in action, and working.

​

Romans 6:14-15​

For sin shall not have dominion over you, ​

for you are not under law but under grace. ​

What then? ​

Shall we sin because we are not under law​

but under grace? ​

Certainly not!​

 

[posthuman]

However as Paul has said, we are not under the comdination of the Law.

yup, we're not under the condemnation of the Law.

if you sinned right now, you would be under the condemnation of the law.

um...
why would i be under the condemnation of the Law since you just agreed we are not under the condemnation of the Law?

freedom from condemnation only works if we never sin??

If that were so, then Christ died for nothing and His intercession in heaven is meaningless.
that's not the gospel.

but Jesus accomplished for us real, effective salvation - true freedom and life, everlasting life!
and He gives it to us freely, on the basis of faith, not of works.

 

[posthuman]

You have never seen me mad, and trust me, you don't want to.
As to your attempt to give an understanding of Mat. 5:17-18 when asked about that directly, by not not even try to look at just those 2 passages. Well that is up to you. However as I said, until you can, you always spend your time avoiding them. So what I am to think, do those 2 passage scare you, or is that they simply don't fit with the law gone thinking?

previously addressed like 15 times.

 

[Rainrider]

Off script once more.
I have started to think that we may hold the same understanding on the topic of the Law. Before any tells me how wrong I am I wish you to think about this post.
As the last 2 off script post were on the Fest, and the Offerings/sacrifices. Today I am going to talk about the Temple. I know there will a lot of people saying how wrong I am to speak of this, and some will not even get this fare in reading it. For you that have I thank you.
When we think of the Temple services most only see the sacrifices, incenses, and what they have read or heard. NOt many go past this to see what we find. However even the building is a testament to Yeshua, and the way to salvation. (Wish I knew how to post a pick of the temple on here it would help.) As we know, the Temple had only way in. By all accounts, it doesn't seem that big. Oh I am sure that from I have seen, (the model in the Temple Institute in Jerusalem.) You can maybe get 2 or 3 people through the gate standing side by side.
Anywho, we first see the gate that leads to the womens court. As I have said before, enter by gentiles is not permitted. The reason for a dived between women and men is thought to be that that men may sin when looking at a women. Even today, many men do look on a women and think impure thoughts. If this is the real reason we will only know when we get to ask HaShem. Though it does seem to fit with much of what we read. Like how Yeshua tells us that to look on a women with lust in our hearts is sin.
Next we find the gate to the alter. Keep in mind this all in a straight line. The alter as we should know, is a shadow of the sacrifice Yeshua made for all us. The blood that is sprinkled on the alter, the killing of the sacrifice, if it was that form of sacrifice. Right down to the cleaning of the alter, all show us something.
Lets take a look and see what we find here.
The sacrifice is a shadow of Yeshua, and his willingly giving His life for us all. we find it sad that knowing this, some with to say He was killed by the Jewish people, others say it was the Romens. In all truth I don't see it as anyone killing Him. After all Yeshua did say,
Jhn 10:18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
That's all I need to know, his words are clear.
The same is true of any sacrifice ever given o the alter. It had to be done willingly, and out of love.
Next we see the entryway into the Holy place. This is not the same as the Holy of Holy's. As we know, the priest is to keep the menorah burning day and night. It didn't need to be the High Priest, any priest from the line of Aaron, that had been annotated, and washed can do this.
Next in line would the alter of Incense. Although only the High priest was to burn the incense, it was not in the Holy of Holy's, rather right in front of the curtain. It was always cleaned after use,.
Next if we were to look past the the inter curtain, we would see the Mercy Seat. Also know as the throne of HaShem.
So what do we learn from this? We can see the vary plan of salvation laid out before us. Yet many simply wish to think it holds nothing for us.
To this day, we understand that the path to salvation is seen as a narrow path and not many will find it. As Yeshua said Mat 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
As we know, life and salvation can be interchangeable. Just as Law, commandment, and Torah can be. Much as I have came to think that the wording Under the law, is also interchangeable with the idea of not being under it's condemnation. I do thank you all for bring that though to mind. As it will be the topic of our next study. No not on here sorry.
In the temple time, and yes I think both had this problem, something changed. Was it the Law, or was it the heart of man? As we know full well HaShem doesn't change, if He had, He would have made that clear to us. Yet He told us.
Mal 3:6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Now I was once told I simply don't understand this passage, yet not once has anyone ever offered up any thing at all as to a different understanding. It is after all stated clearly that He doesn't change. Also we can look at,
Heb 13:8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
For us that see Yeshua and HaShem as the same it is clear that if they don't change, nothing they set down changes. Even as the Temple gives us a clear pitcher of salvation, the Law makes it clear how we should live. As love is the basses of the Law, why would say don't even try to follow it. After all we know that to setp out side of the law brings condemnation on us. As I have said many times, none of us can live it out in perfection. Yet to try and set it aside and say don't ever try to follow it. leads one to think that it has no place in our lives. Yet it does.
When you see sin, you know what it is, and sin isn't a thing at all if there is no law to say, "Hay stop that it's sinful." This is why we were given the Law, to show us the sin in our lives.
Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Now back to the law being Love. Though it has been debated, some saying it wasn't and others saying it is. The sacrifices were intended to be given out of love, and respect. Just as we should also show our love and respect of HaShem by walking in all that He has commanded us. To remove His law may be compared to mutiny. Although that may not be as accurate as others may come up with it most likely will hold the same meaning.
Just the Temple may not give the symbolism to others, there is little that can be said that makes this understanding faults. If there is anything at all.

 

[posthuman]

is my great great grandfather a law breaker because he didn't pay property taxes this year?

um no he's dead. the law does not apply to him.

you can accuse him of breaking loitering laws at the cemetary because his corpse has been hanging around there for years but let me save you some trouble, dude - that ain't gonna last 2 minutes in court.

"defendant has died; case dismissed"

plaintiff advised not to waste the court's time.

 

[Rainrider]

yup, we're not under the condemnation of the Law.



um...
why would i be under the condemnation of the Law since you just agreed we are not under the condemnation of the Law?

freedom from condemnation only works if we never sin??

If that were so, then Christ died for nothing and His intercession in heaven is meaningless.
that's not the gospel.

but Jesus accomplished for us real, effective salvation - true freedom and life, everlasting life!
and He gives it to us freely, on the basis of faith, not of works.

You do know you just answered your own question right? Like I said, IF YOU SIN you are under the condemnation of the Law. As we all know no one follows the law in perfection, we all sin.

 

[Rainrider]

is my great great grandfather a law breaker because he didn't pay property taxes this year?

um no he's dead. the law does not apply to him.

you can accuse him of breaking loitering laws at the cemetary because his corpse has been hanging around there for years but let me save you some trouble, dude - that ain't gonna last 2 minutes in court.

"defendant has died; case dismissed"

plaintiff advised not to waste the court's time.

Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Accoding to this passage, we live.

 

[posthuman]

So you think living a sinful life is beter than doing our best to walk in the example Yeshua left us? After all He did say to keep His commandments. I would rather show my Faithfulness by trying, rather than just say, "It's too hard forget it."

you should read @Cameron143's remark again.

he did not say "forget it*
he said if anyone wants to keep the law they should desire that Christ keep it in them.
and that's exactly what He does.