Understanding Genesis 1:1

Sipsey · Oct 21, 2023

1:1 is more accurately translated “in a beginning.” There are several beginnings noted in Scripture, and John-1:1 is closest to “The beginning.”

Dino246 · Oct 21, 2023

Rondonmon said:

What makes you think I think that? Please, enlighten us, O wise one!

Dino246 · Oct 21, 2023

John146 said:

Your insistence upon the correctness of the KJV is misplaced, and your assertion of things that are not in Scripture is concerning.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 21, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Only God existed prior to creation.

Your analogy is incorrect. "if you superimpose the word God in this analogy", the analogy should read:

"in the kitchen God ... God made created the table and chairs", this would imply that God made or created the table and chairs inside of, or within the kitchen God, meaning that the kitchen God was already there, and He simply made the items within it God"

this would align with many verses in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Acts 17:24-27 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us

Colossians 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by [Greek en = in] him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Greek dia = through] him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by [Greek en = in] him all things consist.
.

oyster67 · Oct 21, 2023

Rondonmon said:

When you get to heaven and figure out you were wrong. then think bout those you might have could have had an open door to reach with the gospel, with facts, not silly stuff, and how many sous were lost to lies then maybe it will hit you why its always important to understand the facts. These things are easy for me compared to understanding Prophecy they are a cake walk. I had a discussion with another guy once and had to explain to him why the "English KJV" is not the be all end all, we have to go back to the ROOT WORDS in order to understand the bible, there is NO EXCUSE we have computers that make that easy. Below is my post that blows away your "THEORY" that the word used means DAY.

Hello Mike allow me to first show what I mean as per how the word is used in various ways, the we can go from there.

#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome}

from an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; TWOT - 852; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) AS A DIVISION OF TIME
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) TIME, PERIOD (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

From an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; a day (as the WARM HOURS), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a SPACE OF TIME defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + ALWAYS, + CHRONICLES, CONTINUALLY (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X FULL, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X REQUIRED, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

#3117.
יוֹם
yom (398a); a prim. root; day:—
NASB - afternoon*(1), age(8), age*(1), all(1), always*(14), amount*(2), battle(1), birthday*(1), Chronicles*(38), completely*(1), continually*(14), course*(1), daily(22), daily the days(1), day(1115), day of the days(1), day that the period(1), day's(6), day's every day(1), daylight*(1), days(635), days on the day(1), days to day(1), days you shall daily(1), days ago(1), days'(11), each(1), each day(4), entire(2), eternity(1), evening*(1), ever in your life*(1), every day(2), fate(1), first(5), forever*(11), forevermore*(1), full(5), full year(1), future*(1), holiday*(3), later*(2), length(1), life(12), life*(1), lifetime(2), lifetime*(1), live(1), long(2), long as i live(1), long*(11), midday*(1), now(5), older*(1), once(2), period(3), perpetually*(2), present(1), recently(1), reigns(1), ripe*(1), short-lived*(1), so long*(1), some time(1), survived*(2), time(45), time*(1), times*(2), today(172), today*(1), usual(1), very old*(1), when(10), when the days(1), whenever(1), while(3), whole(2), year(10), yearly(5), years(13), yesterday*(1).
—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries

AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; 2274

CONTINUED

Day=Morning/Evening cycle in the context as well as common sense reading. Sorry if that offends your carnal high-faluting sensibilities and friends. Also, seven days=Week (not 13 billion Years.) Once you initially derail the train, nothing makes sense thereafter. That is the strategy of your father the Devil.

Genesis 1:5
“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”

DJT_47 · Oct 22, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Only God existed prior to creation.

Your analogy is incorrect. "if you superimpose the word God in this analogy", the analogy should read:

"in the kitchen God ... God made created the table and chairs", this would imply that God made or created the table and chairs inside of, or within the kitchen God, meaning that the kitchen God was already there, and He simply made the items within it God"

this would align with many verses in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Acts 17:24-27 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us

Colossians 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by [Greek en = in] him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Greek dia = through] him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by [Greek en = in] him all things consist.
.

What creation is Gen1 discussing? It's talking about the creation of the heaven and earth, not the universe. Verse 1, as I asserted, implies that there was a beginning which preceded the creation discussed in Gen 1. Yes God only existed before everything, but Gen 1 is not discussing the creation of everything.

Dino246 · Oct 22, 2023

DJT_47 said:

You’re trying to make the words mean something very different than what they mean in every other context. The normal way to read Genesis 1:1 is, ‘the first thing God did was create the heavens and the earth’, not, ‘Some stuff happened and then God created the heavens and the earth’.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 22, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Genesis 1:1 is talking about the universe. Genesis 1:1 is speaking of the whole of all God created ... which is understood only by faith:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

the meaning of so that things which are seen are not made of things which do appear is that the physical universe was not made out of pre-existing materials.

DJT_47 said:

only God preceded the beginning.

DJT_47 said:

Genesis 1 verse 1 is discussing the creation of everything.

Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 speaks of everything God set in order to support life on earth.

Genesis 2:4 speaks of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created ...
.

DJT_47 · Oct 23, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Is it? It says

"1In the beginning God created THE heaven and THE earth."

Then it says

"7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven."

So the above defines the heaven. Gen 1 is NOT talking about the creation of the universe. Gen 1:1-2 gives you an overview and after that is more detail, no different than Gen 1:27 discusses an overview of the creation of man and then you have detail delineated afterwards in Gen 2:4 et al.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 24, 2023

DJT_47 said:

yes.

DJT_47 said:

notice in Gen 1:6 that God did not have to "create" anything relating to the heaven ...

Genesis 1:6-8 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

... the reason being that He created all that was necessary in Gen 1:1.

whatever the "firmament" consists of was created in Gen 1:1 ... and, according to vss 3-5, darkness and light are contained in the firmament, along with other matter ... have you ever heard of the term "dark matter"? whatever darkness and light consist of was created in Gen 1:1.

DJT_47 said:

Gen 1:1 is talking about the creation of the universe as shown by the word "created" in the very first verse.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created [Hebrew bārā' ] the heaven [plural] and the earth.

the word "create" (Heb bārā') is used only 3 times in Genesis 1 ...

in vs 1 – where God tells us He created the heavens and the earth. He brought forth all of creation from nothing.

in vs 21 – where God tells us He created great whales and every living thing [Hebrew nephesh] that moveth. so the nephesh was brought forth out of nothing.

in vs 27 – where God tells us He created man in His own image.

all the rest of the verses in Gen 1 deal with God arranging and putting in order everything He created in Gen 1:1.

then in vs 21, God created nephesh ... living creatures

then in vs 27, God created man in His own image, male and female created He them. God formed the body of man from the dust of the ground (which He created in Gen 1:1) and breathed into man (Gen 2:7) and man became living nephesh (something already created in Gen 1:21) ... but what separated mankind from all other nephesh was the image of God in which man was created (Gen 1:27).

when Adam sinned, nephesh still gave life to his body ... but he no longer reflected the image of God ... and all Adam's descendants were made in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3). Succeeding generations after that were made in the image and likeness of their parents. you were born after the image and likeness of your father and mother.

And it was not until Day of Pentecost that we read about the new man in which the born again one is created in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
.

Researcher · Oct 29, 2023

I think I understand your analogy @DJT_47 .

Before our Universe (with its Tables and chairs) was created, there existed a 'Kitchen'.

This would make sense if said Kitchen was the Highest Heaven that has always existed before the Universe began.

That would then make the newly created Universe (Tables and Chairs) the other two Heavens.

If we keep going with this analogy, we discover that the King James translation is the correct one...

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Notice that the word 'Heaven' is *singular*, meaning that only *one* of the Three Heavens has been created so far.

Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The phrase 'without form' implies something that is two-dimensional. A 'void' would be a complete vacuum.

Thus, the Universe started out as a two-dimensional 'plane'. Said 2D Plane is the 'Deep' and 'Face of the Waters'...

Strong's Hebrew: 8415. תְּהוֹם (tehom) -- deep, sea, abyss (biblehub.com)

Strong's Hebrew: 4325. מָ֫יִם (mayim) -- waters, water (biblehub.com)

In M-Theory, that Plane is called a 'WorldSheet'...

God then created our three-dimensional Universe by dividing the WorldSheet and creating a WorldVolume...

Genesis 1:6-8
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Thus, on the Second Day, the Second Heaven was created. The Third Heaven was created on the Third Day.

DJT_47 · Oct 29, 2023

Researcher said:

Actually, I'm suggesting that the words may imply that something existed and was already created prior to that which is described in Gen 1:1; heaven and earth. Possibly the universe had already been created and Gen 1:1 and after, is really relating to just the earth and its surroundings. That which was in existence or created prior to Gen 1:1 is the
"kitchen".

Also, the KJV does have flaws, a sigificant and very misleading one is in Gen 1:16 wherein it suggests that the stars were made in that time frame, and added, not translated, the words "HE MADE the stars also".

If you look at the interlinear and you read and understand clearly the context of Day four as relates to the moon, you understand that the moon, with it's grandeur, it's brightness, size, and presence, was to rule over the night INCLUDING having dominance over the stars. The interlinear infers these words were added and is much clearer. This is also consistent with the context of Day 4 as further confirmed by verse 18. If you take out the words "he made", then it (verse 16) is clear. AND "the stars also", meaning rule over or have dominance over them at night.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And just one more point relating to the 3rd heaven. The 3rd heaven is paradise, so it must be above that which we know and can see.

2 Cor 12:2-4

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Researcher · Oct 29, 2023

DJT_47 said:

If God created our Universe, then naturally God exists outside of it.

Would the area outside of our Universe not be the Highest Heaven?

DJT_47 said:

Earth was completed on the Third Day...

Genesis 1:10
"And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

Again, the phrase 'without form' in Genesis 1:2 means just that. It describes something that is two-dimensional. The Third Dimension did not even exist at that point. Void is a complete vacuum.

DJT_47 said:

I am not understanding. If everything was made in 24 hours or less, what difference does it make what came first?

Note that the above is also a Prophecy. The Greater Light represents the Father. The Lesser Light represents the Mother. The Stars represent Children, so naturally the Sun and Moon have dominance over them.

DJT_47 said:

The Third Heaven is the Kingdom of God Within...

Luke 17:21
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

It is the Microcosm of Life, which was created on the Third Day.

Dino246 · Oct 29, 2023

Researcher said:

You are assuming that God, a Spirit, requires some form of 'space' in which to live.

Researcher said:

Earth's surface was adjusted allowing hard ground to appear where there was formerly only water, but the Earth had been created "in the beginning. God continued modifying the surface by creating plants, and later by flooding the entire surface again.

Researcher said:

The words that follow, "and darkness was on the face of the deep" refute your thesis entirely. "Face" indicates two dimensions, and "deep" indicates the third.

Researcher said:

You're inserting specific definitions of words into contexts where they don't fit.

Researcher · Oct 30, 2023

Dino246 said:

Where do you think God dwells? Nowhere?

Dino246 said:

Once again, 'without form' means exactly that. Earth was without form. A globe or sphere is a form. A blob of water is a form.

How could Earth exist if the Firmament of Space had not even been created yet? Outer space, i.e., the Universe, was created here...

Genesis 1:6
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

Therefore, you are in error.

Dino246 said:

You do not understand what the word 'Deep' means. I specifically included a link to the Hebrew in my previous post to educate everyone as to the many definitions that word has...

Strong's Hebrew: 8415. תְּהוֹם (tehom) -- deep, sea, abyss (biblehub.com)

"confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, vain, vanity, waste"

One definition is the grave. The word 'deep' can imply something that has no bottom to it. In other words, it is 'bottomless' in the sense that it has infinite potential yet to be realized.

Look at what Wikipedia has to say about that word...

"Tehom is a Biblical Hebrew word meaning "the deep". It is used to describe the primeval ocean..."

Tehom - Wikipedia

What is the 'Primeval Ocean'?

"Found in many cultures and civilizations, the cosmic ocean exists before the creation of the earth."

"From the primordial waters the earth and the entire cosmos arose. The cosmic ocean represents or embodies chaos."

Cosmic ocean - Wikipedia

Here is another link...

"In the Bible, the abyss is an unfathomably deep or boundless place."

"The term comes from the Greek word abyssos, meaning bottomless, unfathomable, boundless."

"In a later extended sense in intertestamental Jewish literature, the abyss was the underworld, either the abode of the dead (Sheol) or eventually the realm of the rebellious spirits (Hell)."

Abyss (religion) - Wikipedia

Thus, Genesis 1 could be interpreted as

"In the beginning, God created Heaven and Hell"

I even included a bit of M-Theory for those intelligent enough to understand how the theory agrees with Genesis. It is up to you folks to do your homework and grasp how 'deep' the profoundness of God's Word can go.

Dino246 said:

That would be you doing that by 'dumbing down' the Word of God to fit your limited understanding. The word 'Vacuum' literally comes from the word 'Void'...

"A vacuum (pl: vacuums or vacua) is a space devoid of matter."

"The word is derived from the Latin adjective vacuus for "vacant" or "void"."

Vacuum - Wikipedia

Personally, I think it is quite beautiful that Genesis agrees with the most cutting-edge Science out there.

DJT_47 · Oct 30, 2023

Dino246 said:

God is spirit, not a spirit. See the original Greek; the kjv is a poor translation. God is spirit meaning life, energy, that which quickens.

Dino246 · Oct 30, 2023

Researcher said:

Scripture doesn't tell us at this point (Genesis) whether God dwells within a "space". I see no reason to assume, and I don't accept extrabiblical assumptions as a valid basis for discussion.

Researcher said:

EVERYTHING physical has a "form". The standard interpretation that the surface of the earth was without distinguishing features is sound and I see no need to reinterpret it.

Researcher said:

Go back to verse 1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Your argument is refuted before you even form the words.

Researcher said:

See below *.

Researcher said:

Which clearly implies a third dimension.

Researcher said:

So now Wikipedia is a reliable source of biblically-sound information on theologically significant words? Um, no... especially when it suggests what is clearly contrary to plain Scripture.

Researcher said:

* Your arrogance is on public display.

Researcher said:

There's the problem: you have the order backwards. Genesis is the word of God, and it stands far above science. That you capitalize "Science" suggests a bias.

Researcher · Oct 30, 2023

@Dino246 .

The Word of God specifically states that the Earth was without form and void. That is what I believe.

You believe the opposite...

Dino246 said:

You are in contradiction with Scripture. As such, there is nothing more for me to discuss with you.

harpo · Oct 30, 2023

Seems to me that if there was an EARTH/LAND, that indicates something was there. Being void and without form simply means it was it was chaotic, in a confused state and empty. The globe was in a way indescribable.

Since the Spirit of God MOVED over it, something had to be there. It was likely an icy, watery, formless mass of dirt, rocks, ice, soil, mud, etc.

The same word 'void' is used in Isaiah 34:11 meaning, confused and empty. The globe was in an indescribable form, chaotic and broken up.

Jeremiah in Chapter 4 said, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; H922 and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah beheld SOMETHING called earth.

Beheld - to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider.

Romans34 · Oct 31, 2023

Rondonmon said:

What part of the 9.2 billion years was the evening of the First YOWM and what part of the 9.2 billion years was the morning of the First YOWM? and are the evenings and mornings of the other YOWMs the same amount of time? And if not, what is the significance of the evening and the morning?

Understanding Genesis 1:1

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