What Events do Those Who Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
- Thread starter ByTheGraceOfGod
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2 Thess.2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
-
2
- Show all
The reason I started it there was to incorporate those churches ..which will exist.
(church = ekklēsia meaning “called out” or “assembly”) This is referring to a group of people not a physical structure…..This is not the same “called out” (Christians) of which we belong to and read in the epistles. There will be “believers” but Christians (by definition) will be gone.
-
1
- Show all
op: events before pre-trib departure?
None.
The "Times of the Signs (events)" is for the "Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble,"
After The Body Of Christ leaves earth, in:
Great GRACE Departure!
Amen.
None.
The "Times of the Signs (events)" is for the "Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble,"
After The Body Of Christ leaves earth, in:
Great GRACE Departure!
Amen.
-
1
- Show all
Either you are not reading what I stated, or you are twisting it to make your own point.
In simple terms: If there is a mixed group of people consisting of military personal and those who are not military.
A call to service is broadcast for all military personal to report to duty immediately ….and all military leave for their respective divisions ….. do you refer to those who are left…. as military?
Whether you adhere to the rapture or not …my point is …. Once Christ returns for the Church of God (body of Christ) all born again people are gone …by definition a born-again person (Christ-in) = Christian…. Who’s left?.
This is interesting.
In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In Him ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. and are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.
You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. neither will you find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace. ….There will technically be no “Christians” (per se) in the tribulation times of the Lords day/Day of the Lord.
The term Christian which derived from the above recognitions (in Christ, In Jesus … etc) will not be applicable to the gentiles and Jews which will be the two categories of people in Revelation…..just as it was in the Old Testament and gospels prior to Pentecost.
__________________________________________________________
We are currently in the dispensation of Grace as defined by God, which houses the mystery of the one body AKA ...Christians
How much grace is there in Revelation ???
It is used twice …. once in the opening salutation Rev 1:4 and once in the closing verse Rev 22:21.
Compare that to the 72 times grace is referred to in the seven Church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians…..plus 10x in Acts ….. and 34x in Timothy through Jude … all of which pertain to the administration of grace…… that comes to 116 X
But all things being equal…. I would deduct the 27x from all of the epistles where grace is used as an opening and closing salutation. That would leave us with 89 total times grace is referred to …. but if we deduct the salutations from Revelation ….there would be ~ zero ~
{For reference…. grace is used 37 x throughout the entire OT …. and 4x in gospels ….}
I’ll add a few more
*Church of God is reference 9 times in Acts and the epistles zero X in Old Testament & Gospels… zero X in Revelation
______________________
*One Body is referenced 14 X in the Church epistles only… zero X in Revelation.
The one body will be gone at the “gathering together” (rapture) ………….In Revelation it will only be Jews and Gentiles.
_________________
*The mystery in the administration of grace is “the one new man” Jews and gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body ….this mystery is referred in the church epistles 14 times ….
The only mystery that is referred to in Revelation is ……..Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
In simple terms: If there is a mixed group of people consisting of military personal and those who are not military.
A call to service is broadcast for all military personal to report to duty immediately ….and all military leave for their respective divisions ….. do you refer to those who are left…. as military?
Whether you adhere to the rapture or not …my point is …. Once Christ returns for the Church of God (body of Christ) all born again people are gone …by definition a born-again person (Christ-in) = Christian…. Who’s left?.
This is interesting.
In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In Him ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. and are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.
You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. neither will you find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace. ….There will technically be no “Christians” (per se) in the tribulation times of the Lords day/Day of the Lord.
The term Christian which derived from the above recognitions (in Christ, In Jesus … etc) will not be applicable to the gentiles and Jews which will be the two categories of people in Revelation…..just as it was in the Old Testament and gospels prior to Pentecost.
__________________________________________________________
We are currently in the dispensation of Grace as defined by God, which houses the mystery of the one body AKA ...Christians
How much grace is there in Revelation ???
It is used twice …. once in the opening salutation Rev 1:4 and once in the closing verse Rev 22:21.
Compare that to the 72 times grace is referred to in the seven Church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians…..plus 10x in Acts ….. and 34x in Timothy through Jude … all of which pertain to the administration of grace…… that comes to 116 X
But all things being equal…. I would deduct the 27x from all of the epistles where grace is used as an opening and closing salutation. That would leave us with 89 total times grace is referred to …. but if we deduct the salutations from Revelation ….there would be ~ zero ~
{For reference…. grace is used 37 x throughout the entire OT …. and 4x in gospels ….}
I’ll add a few more
*Church of God is reference 9 times in Acts and the epistles zero X in Old Testament & Gospels… zero X in Revelation
______________________
*One Body is referenced 14 X in the Church epistles only… zero X in Revelation.
The one body will be gone at the “gathering together” (rapture) ………….In Revelation it will only be Jews and Gentiles.
_________________
*The mystery in the administration of grace is “the one new man” Jews and gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body ….this mystery is referred in the church epistles 14 times ….
The only mystery that is referred to in Revelation is ……..Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
The book of Revelation is essentially the exposé of real time events of the prophecy in OT and Gospels (and some reference in the epistles) regarding The Lords Day/Day of the Lord… time of The Tribulation or Great Tribulation …. The day of the Lord is representative of the entire time ….not just the day Jesus comes to the Mt of Olive.
As for the churches being in existence now … based on the truth that Jews and Gentiles are the only two groups of people that Revelation deals with..... I am incline to say they are not in existence yet …but that is speculation.
As for the churches being in existence now … based on the truth that Jews and Gentiles are the only two groups of people that Revelation deals with..... I am incline to say they are not in existence yet …but that is speculation.
Aren't these churches the ones Paul started and wrote letters to? And even if you don't believe that, isn't John instructed to write to those churches? How can that happen if he doesn't write during his lifetime?
Also, if you don't mind, when do you think the book was written and to who?
Also, if you don't mind, when do you think the book was written and to who?
-
1
- Show all
I will detail this in a bit more depth and message (or conversation) you on it.
But briefly … The matters spoken of in Revelation of Jesus Christ deal with the Day of the Lord ….which suggests that the seven church’s do not refer to the seven churches that existed in the 1st century. They refer to the seven churches or assemblies that are to exist during the future time known as the Day of the Lord.
John was told to write these things to the angels (or messengers) of those future assemblies (called out) as regards to what is to occur in the Day of the Lord (documented in the 2nd and 3rd chapters) …… The seven assemblies will be the people of Israel and they will be living during this future period of time that is delt with in the book of Revelation.
Revelation is documented to be written in the window of ….89 to 97 AD. which the latter would have been shortly before John’s death …… Chronologically it was the last book of the Protestant Bible to be written.
But briefly … The matters spoken of in Revelation of Jesus Christ deal with the Day of the Lord ….which suggests that the seven church’s do not refer to the seven churches that existed in the 1st century. They refer to the seven churches or assemblies that are to exist during the future time known as the Day of the Lord.
John was told to write these things to the angels (or messengers) of those future assemblies (called out) as regards to what is to occur in the Day of the Lord (documented in the 2nd and 3rd chapters) …… The seven assemblies will be the people of Israel and they will be living during this future period of time that is delt with in the book of Revelation.
Revelation is documented to be written in the window of ….89 to 97 AD. which the latter would have been shortly before John’s death …… Chronologically it was the last book of the Protestant Bible to be written.
-
1
- Show all
From what you have shared I pretty much know what your arguments are. And I do agree it speaks to the Day of the Lord. But we disagree on when that occurs and when the book was written.
I would be interested in your general outline of the book...how do you believe the book loosely divides and how do you characterize or title the different sections?
I would be interested in your general outline of the book...how do you believe the book loosely divides and how do you characterize or title the different sections?
That’s fine …it doesn’t matter to me if it was written yesterday or 70 AD, which I know some argue for …which is fine. Most of the points for an earlier time is based on the existence or nonexistence documented events… All of which are irrelevant. Because this book (as all of the Word of God) was given by revelation …. Not from man’s recollection.
And since we disagree on when The day of the Lord takes place …we can leave it at that.
And since we disagree on when The day of the Lord takes place …we can leave it at that.
-
1
- Show all