Sunday Worship?

[Inquisitor]

Has the resurrection of the righteous been accomplished? Has the destruction and judgement of the evil been accomplished?
Has the heaven and earth been destroyed with the devil and sin? Has death passed away..... ?

Rev 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

These things have not been fulfilled yet.

From an earthly viewpoint, there are things that need to take place. Yet from a heavenly perspective, all things have already taken place. Our lives are governed by time but heaven is eternal, and is not governed by time.

Be careful in the way you understand the scripture.

Paul states that we are already seated in the kingdom of heaven.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Paul is speaking in the past tense. You are already with Jesus in heaven.

Far too many Christians do have an earthly perspective, lift up your eyes and peer into eternity.

Jesus conquered death and Satan, we are saved, we are perfectly righteous. All things have been accomplished!

Does Jesus need to return?

Stupid thing to say.

How can Jesus die for us and return at the same time?

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes... focus on Jesus and everything else will work out.... Jesus was a perfect example of obedience, and the more we become like Jesus the more we will obey.

We can't become perfect by our efforts but by faith in Jesus we can have His righteousness.

By grace we recieve this gift.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I agree that with Jesus in us, He will keep the law in and through us..
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

So knowing the law helps us know what is sin.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Knowing Jesus is the key. It is essential to let Jesus gain the victory in us by faith. But knowing Jesus is more then just know His name or knowing about Him. It is understanding His character and spending quality time with Him. The law is part of God's character of love.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till Heaven and Earth Pass one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

If you take that as the whole Torah and every law it can be an issue. Laws have been nailed to the cross. But the law Jesus was talking about does not change till heaven and Earth pass.

This is why we need to understand that there are different laws.

Ceremonial laws that were a shadow.
The moral law
The civil laws
And natural laws

Gravity is still a law of nature today
The moral law is still unchanged today.

The civil and ceremonial laws passed away when Jesus died and when Israel stopped being a nation.

Rom 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the law of liberty?

 

[Inquisitor]

Matthew (12) (39) The Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign - Jesus replied” No Sign will be given, except the Sign of the Prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of The Great Fish, so will The Son of Man be three days and three nights in The Earth.”

This is a Prophecy of Jesus Christ.

After Jesus’s Crucifixion, we read in Mark (15) (42) Now when evening had come, because it was Preparation Day, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate granted this.

Since it was evening before Joseph approached Pilate to claim Jesus’s body, and they had to retrieve it, prepare it, wrap it in white linen, place it in the Tomb, and cover the opening, the daytime part of Friday was virtually gone. The dividing line between day and night was sundown, and they were so close to sundown that Friday cannot be counted as a day of Jesus’s Prophecy. However Friday night can be counted, and it proceeds as follows [Fri night -night #1] [Sat. day - day #1 ] [ Sat. night - night # 2 ] [ Sun day - Day # 2 ] [ Sun night - night # 3 ] [ Mon. day - day # 3 ] The day of Jesus’s Resurrection is Monday.
View attachment 256691
It is the Babylonian Catholic Church that insisted the Resurrection was on Sunday and not on Jesus’s Prophetic day Monday.
They promoted this Lie many centuries ago, when their power and influence on Christianity was much greater than today.

The Babylonian Catholic Church needed this Lie to promote another Great Deception on Christianity, they used this Lie ( The Sunday Resurrection ), as a reason to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

They freely admit to changing the Sabbath, and explain their reasoning for changing it on their website, Catholic Answers, which states - “ Sunday Worship is justified by a tradition, handed down from the Apostles, which took its origin from the very day of Christ's Resurrection”

Handed down from the Apostles is not true, we will see throughout Acts, the Apostles worshiped and preached on the seventh day ( Saturday) Sabbath.
Using the false Sunday Resurrection as an excuse to change the Sabbath is in true Satanic Tradition, of one Lie supporting another Lie.

After Jesus’s Ascension to Heaven, the Apostles continued Honoring and Preaching on the Seventh Day (Saturday) Sabbath.

Acts (13) (42-44) So when the Jews went out of the Synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them on the next Sabbath. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the Word of God. ( Showing that the Sabbath is not just for Jews. )

Acts (16) (13) And on the Sabbath Day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made.

Acts (17) (2) Then Paul, as his custom was, went to them and for three Sabbath, and reasoned with them from the scriptures.

Acts (18) (4) (Paul) and reasoned in the Synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. (again showing that the Sabbath wasn’t just for Jews).

Luke (4) (31) (speaking of Jesus) Then he went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths (Plural) Showing that Jesus also preached on the Seventh Day Sabbath.

The Babylonian Catholic Church referred to Sunday as The Lord's Day. This has been created by the Babylonian Catholic Church, for there is no reference to this anywhere in the Bible. However; the Seventh Day ( Saturday) Sabbath has many references as being the Lord’s Day.

Exodus (20) (7) ”The Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God”.

Isaiah (58) (13) The Lord says ”The Sabbath is my Holy Day”.

Isaiah (66) (23) The Lord says “From one Sabbath to another, All Flesh shall come to worship before Me”.

On paragraph 2175 of the Babylonian Catholic Church’s Catechism, the Church states that the Seventh Day Sabbath is the Jewish Sabbath. However ; in Mark (2) (27) Jesus says “The Sabbath is made for Man”. In the Greek text the word for man is Anthropos, which means the Whole Human Race.

In conclusion, I present to you two contradictory statements. You decide which one is the true statement.

[1] “ Saturday is no longer the worship day of God”- So says Pope Benedict (16th) on Monday July 25, 2005.

[2] “ From one Sabbath to another, All Flesh shall come to Worship before Me” From Isaiah (66) (23) and is a quote from The Lord Thy God.

The Fourth Commandment states “Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.” That was written in stone by the hand of God. I think it’s important.

The seventh day is a day of rest, no work. That is, according to the law of Moses.

Sunday is a celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some churches have weekday services and Saturday services.

Two different days, never confuse these two days, they are not the same.

Jesus rose on the third day and not after the third day.

You are not saved on the basis of which day of the week you gather together. You should be gathering together to break the bread, more frequently than just one day a week. We must live, eat, and breathe the Christian life, pray without ceasing.

 

[TMS]

From an earthly viewpoint, there are things that need to take place. Yet from a heavenly perspective, all things have already taken place. Our lives are governed by time but heaven is eternal, and is not governed by time.

Be careful in the way you understand the scripture.

Paul states that we are already seated in the kingdom of heaven.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Paul is speaking in the past tense. You are already with Jesus in heaven.

Far too many Christians do have an earthly perspective, lift up your eyes and peer into eternity.

Jesus conquered death and Satan, we are saved, we are perfectly righteous. All things have been accomplished!

Does Jesus need to return?

Stupid thing to say.

How can Jesus die for us and return at the same time?

Obviously, This word is sure and can not fail.
But the fact is that these things have not taken place yet. We know they are certain
But have the verse we are looking at states that " until heaven and earth pass away"

God's plan was certain from the start but he has let the plan unfold in His time.

And God said
Mat 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Why even set those points in time if they mean nothing? He said this for us to know that one jot or tittle shall not pass.
So we know that the is still valid today.
So we know..at this point in time the law has not changed.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Rom 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We are free from the condemnation of the law by grace but we can choose if are servents to obedience unto righteousness.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Dino246]

One that still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

Wrong.

A God who commands His people to commit adultery does not have the same identify as the God of Israel in the same way that a God who commands a covenant with a different set of laws does not have the same identify as the God of Israel.

Where has anyone said that God commands His people to commit adultery?

The way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

Wrong. One would be a fool to pretend that following the Mosaic Law today would be a sound testimony to God's righteousness because we cannot follow the Law perfectly, and God's righteousness requires perfection.

It was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before God made the Mosaic Covenant, it was a sin during it, it remains a sin after it has become obsolete, and it will always be a sin to commit adultery not matter how many covenants God makes, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal.

Irrelevant. The Christian believer guided by the Holy Spirit does not commit adultery. That's the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

Hebrews 8:10 states that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts,

No it doesn't. The word "Mosaic" is not there.

so I don't see how you can deny that it involves following it. In Hebrews 8:6-9, it does not say that the fault that God found was with what He commanded, but rather it says that He found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant,

Wrong. Read verse 7.

so the solution to the problem is not for God to do away with His eternal righteousness and His eternal laws for how to testify about His righteousness, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying them. This is why the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law

Wrong. Read Hebrews 8:13.

(Ezekiel 36:26-27), sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Mosaic Law and fulfill its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4-7), and putting the Mosaic Law on our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it (Jeremiah 31:33).

Wrong.

While I agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law

Wrong.

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so someone is fulfilling the law whenever they cause that to happen.

Wrong if applied to anyone other than Jesus.

The context of how Christ's audience would have understood what he meant when he said that he came to fulfill the law is relevant and helps to prevent us from inserting our own meaning into it.

True. He came to make it complete, to fulfill its requirements, much the same way fulfilling a mortgage means making the last payment, leaving no more payments to be made.

Do you deny that Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations? There's not much sense in the nations rejecting the light and the blessing because the Mosaic Law was given to the Israelites to teach to the nations in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel instead of being directly given to the nations.

Irrelevant bafflegab.

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when God's people sinned, so we were never required to obey it perfectly[/QUOTE]
Wrong. People who transgressed died on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Does that not equal "required" to you?

Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is the way to have faith in him,

Wrong. Having faith is believing what you can't see.

and it is contradictory to have faith in God for salvation while not having faith in what He has instructed. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and to deny that we should trust God's instructions is to deny that we should trust God.

More irrelevant bafflegab.

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin.

You just contradicted yourself. Here are your words from just up the page:

"so we were never required to obey it".

We can't follow God's word made flesh while refusing to follow God's word. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.

Where have I suggested that Christian freedom is the freedom to sin? Don't be ridiculous!

In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while the truth sets us free.

Yet following the Mosaic Law does not set us free. Rather it keeps us in bondage as explained in Galatians 4.

 

[Dino246]

Obviously, This word is sure and can not fail.
But the fact is that these things have not taken place yet. We know they are certain
But have the verse we are looking at states that " until heaven and earth pass away"

God's plan was certain from the start but he has let the plan unfold in His time.

And God said
Mat 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Why even set those points in time if they mean nothing? He said this for us to know that one jot or tittle shall not pass.
So we know that the is still valid today.
So we know..at this point in time the law has not changed.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Rom 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We are free from the condemnation of the law by grace but we can choose if are servents to obedience unto righteousness.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Was the writer of Hebrews inspired or not? He says the (Sinai) covenant is "obsolete and will soon disappear" (Hebrews 8:13). It did disappear in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple.

For the Christian, the Law given at Sinai is no longer in effect. It hasn't changed; rather, it has become obsolete. It is not the basis of our relationship with God as it was for the ancient Israelite.

 

[Soyeong]

Wrong.

You're free to deny the truth of that verse if you want, but that is what the verse says and I believe that the whole Bible is true.

Where has anyone said that God commands His people to commit adultery?

I didn't say that God did that, but a God who does do that would have a different identity than the God of Israel. The things that the God of Israel has commanded are part of His identity, so following a different set of laws would involves following a different God.

Wrong. One would be a fool to pretend that following the Mosaic Law today would be a sound testimony to God's righteousness because we cannot follow the Law perfectly, and God's righteousness requires perfection.

Our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying that God is good we, we are also expressing the belief that He is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith through his works. The same is true of other aspects of God's nature. We are ambassadors for Christ (Romans 5:20), so our goal is to live in a way that represents or testifies about the nature of who he is. Of course we do not perfectly represent God's righteousness, but God is righteous so every time we do something that is righteous we are testifying about who God is.

Irrelevant. The Christian believer guided by the Holy Spirit does not commit adultery. That's the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

The point is what all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they don't change up between covenants. A Christian believer is guided by the Spirit to refrain from committing adultery as well as to refrain from transgressing God's other laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27), which is in accordance with Jeremiah 31:33.

No it doesn't. The word "Mosaic" is not there.

In Hebrews 8:10, it is quoting from Jeremiah 31:33, which uses the Hebrews word "Torah", which specifically refers to the Mosaic Law.

Wrong. Read verse 7.

Verse 9 says that the fault that God found with the covenant in verse 7 was with the people for not continuing in their covenant.

Wrong. Read Hebrews 8:13.

in Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not mean that we should no longer follow the Mosaic Law.

Wrong.


Wrong.

Again, you're free to think that those verses are wrong, but I believe that the whole Bible is true.

Wrong if applied to anyone other than Jesus.

When Jesus said that he came to fulfill law, that had context that his audience understood, so he was not making up a new concept that only applied to him.

True. He came to make it complete, to fulfill its requirements, much the same way fulfilling a mortgage means making the last payment, leaving no more payments to be made.

That is not the sense that his audience understood what it means to fulfill the law. When a husband fulfills his marriage vows, he is correctly doing what he has vowed to do, not bringing an end to his marriage or doing something that only Jesus could do, and the Mosaic Covenant is described in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, but never in terms of being a mortgage.

Irrelevant bafflegab.

You claimed that the Mosaic Law is for Israelites, but not for Christians, so the fact that it was given to the Israelites in order to be a light and a blessing to the nations by teaching people how to become Christians is directly relevant.

Wrong. People who transgressed died on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Does that not equal "required" to you?

What do you think the point of repenting from our sins if everyone who sinned was supposed to be given the death penalty? While committing some sins like murder or adultery did cary the death penalty, most of God's laws did not, such as with the penalty for committing theft being to make restitution, so it does to require perfect obedience.

Wrong. Having faith is believing what you can't see.

The fact that faith is believing what you can't see does not mean that obedience to God's word is not the way to believe in God's word made flesh.

More irrelevant bafflegab.

By all means please explain how it makes sense to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

You just contradicted yourself. Here are your words from just up the page:

"so we were never required to obey it".

It is not contradictory to hold both the positions that we are required to obey God's law and the position that we are not required to obey it perfectly.

Where have I suggested that Christian freedom is the freedom to sin? Don't be ridiculous!

You have argued that we are free from the Mosaic Law, which is arguing that we have the freedom to sin because it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

Yet following the Mosaic Law does not set us free. Rather it keeps us in bondage as explained in Galatians 4.

Then you're saying that Galatian 4 is accusing Jesus of lying. If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are misusing Galatians 4. Moreover, the Mosaic Law did not come through the line of the slave woman, but rather it came through the line of the free woman, so again it is what sets us free.

 

[Dino246]

You're free to deny the truth of that verse if you want, but that is what the verse says and I believe that the whole Bible is true.

Your misunderstanding of Scripture and your own words leads to your misunderstanding of my statement.

I didn't say that God did that, but a God who does do that would have a different identity than the God of Israel. The things that the God of Israel has commanded are part of His identity, so following a different set of laws would involves following a different God.

Wrongheaded. You are reacting to something I have never advocated. In other words, get out of left field.

Our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying that God is good we, we are also expressing the belief that He is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith through his works. The same is true of other aspects of God's nature. We are ambassadors for Christ (Romans 5:20), so our goal is to live in a way that represents or testifies about the nature of who he is. Of course we do not perfectly represent God's righteousness, but God is righteous so every time we do something that is righteous we are testifying about who God is.

But that does not require obeying the entire Mosaic Law.

The point is what all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they don't change up between covenants. A Christian believer is guided by the Spirit to refrain from committing adultery as well as to refrain from transgressing God's other laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27), which is in accordance with Jeremiah 31:33.

If you believe that, you must tithe, sacrifice animals, and stone adulterers. It's really simple, but apparently far too complex for you to grasp. You are either under the entire Mosaic Law, or none of it. Which are you going to choose? Your salvation depends on your answer!

Verse 9 says that the fault that God found with the covenant in verse 7 was with the people for not continuing in their covenant.

Thanks for confirming my position.

in Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not mean that we should no longer follow the Mosaic Law.

Think through that again. Which part of "obsolete" don't you understand?

Again, you're free to think that those verses are wrong, but I believe that the whole Bible is true.

Again, what is wrong is your misunderstanding of Scripture. Your spinning my words doesn't make you right.

When Jesus said that he came to fulfill law, that had context that his audience understood, so he was not making up a new concept that only applied to him.

Nevertheless, His words did apply only to Him. Clearly.

That is not the sense that his audience understood what it means to fulfill the law. When a husband fulfills his marriage vows, he is correctly doing what he has vowed to do, not bringing an end to his marriage or doing something that only Jesus could do, and the Mosaic Covenant is described in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, but never in terms of being a mortgage.

Yawn.

You claimed that the Mosaic Law is for Israelites, but not for Christians, so the fact that it was given to the Israelites in order to be a light and a blessing to the nations by teaching people how to become Christians is directly relevant.

Wrong. The Mosaic Law was not given to Israelites so they could teach people how to become Christians. Which bible are you reading?

What do you think the point of repenting from our sins if everyone who sinned was supposed to be given the death penalty? While committing some sins like murder or adultery did cary the death penalty, most of God's laws did not, such as with the penalty for committing theft being to make restitution, so it does to require perfect obedience.

You cannot completely obey the Mosaic Law by obeying one statute thereof. You keep sidestepping the issue by focusing on individual statutes instead of recognizing the exhaustive requirement of the Law. Obey all of the Law or you are breaking the Law, as Paul and James explained.

The fact that faith is believing what you can't see does not mean that obedience to God's word is not the way to believe in God's word made flesh.

Um, yes it does! The scriptural definition of faith is "believing what you can't see", not "obeying what you can see".

By all means please explain how it makes sense to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

He instructed us to believe in Jesus!

It is not contradictory to hold both the positions that we are required to obey God's law and the position that we are not required to obey it perfectly.

That's idiotic.

You have argued that we are free from the Mosaic Law, which is arguing that we have the freedom to sin because it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

Bullc**p! Don't put words in my mouth.

Then you're saying that Galatian 4 is accusing Jesus of lying.

Again, bullc**p! Learn how to read!

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are misusing Galatians 4. Moreover, the Mosaic Law did not come through the line of the slave woman, but rather it came through the line of the free woman, so again it is what sets us free.

Wow... you really are confused.

 

[Soyeong]

Your misunderstanding of Scripture and your own words leads to your misunderstanding of my statement.

If I quote Scripture to support my position and you say I'm wrong without explaining why you think that I've misunderstood what I've quoted, then you are disagreeing with what I quoted.

[quoteWrongheaded. You are reacting to something I have never advocated. In other words, get out of left field.[/quote]
The laws that the God of Israel has given testify about His nature, so obeying a different set of laws is following a different God with a different nature.

But that does not require obeying the entire Mosaic Law.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God as it does to describe aspects of the nature of the Mosaic Law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23;23), which is again because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of His nature. So everything that the God of Israel has chosen to command was specifically commanded to teach us how to testify about different aspects of His nature. Moreover, by testifying about aspects of God's nature by obeying the Mosaic Law we are expressing our love for those aspects of His nature, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to God's commandments. So knowing, loving, worshiping, believing in, and testifying about the God of Israel does require obedience the Mosaic Law.

If you believe that, you must tithe, sacrifice animals, and stone adulterers. It's really simple, but apparently far too complex for you to grasp. You are either under the entire Mosaic Law, or none of it. Which are you going to choose? Your salvation depends on your answer!

God is sovereign, so none of it is not an available option, or at least not an option that leads to a good end.

Thanks for confirming my position.

It does not say that the fault that God found with the covenant was with it terms, but with the people for not continuing in their covenant.

Think through that again. Which part of "obsolete" don't you understand?

You should not interpreted Hebrews 8:13 in a way that contradicts Hebrews 8:10. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that it does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), which is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

Again, what is wrong is your misunderstanding of Scripture. Your spinning my words doesn't make you right.

It is one thing for you to make an unsupported claim that I am wrong and another thing for you to demonstrate that I am wrong.

Nevertheless, His words did apply only to Him. Clearly.

According to the NAS Greek Lexicon and other Jewish texts, anyone can fulfill the law by correctly doing the things that it instructs, so it is incorrect to think that it applies only to him. In Galatians 5:4, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that anyone can do, not to something unique to Jesus.

Yawn.

I see that you are unable to counter what I've said.

Wrong. The Mosaic Law was not given to Israelites so they could teach people how to become Christians. Which bible are you reading?

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about following what Christ taught.

You cannot completely obey the Mosaic Law by obeying one statute thereof. You keep sidestepping the issue by focusing on individual statutes instead of recognizing the exhaustive requirement of the Law. Obey all of the Law or you are breaking the Law, as Paul and James explained.

If someone breaks a law, then they need to repent and return to obedience, and the fact that we can repent after we have broken a law again demonstrates that the Mosaic Law does not require prefect obedience.

Um, yes it does! The scriptural definition of faith is "believing what you can't see", not "obeying what you can see".

Every example of faith lists in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works, so that is not contrary to the definition of faith giving in Hebrews 11:1.

He instructed us to believe in Jesus!

The neglects how it makes sense to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed. The way to believe that Jesus is good is by doing good works that testify about his goodness in obedience to God's law, or in other words, the way to believe in the one who is the embodiment if God's way is by embodying God's word in accordance with following his example.

That's idiotic.

That's fairly straightforward.

Bullc**p! Don't put words in my mouth.

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we are required to obey it is the position that we are required refrain from sin while the position that we are not required to obey it is the position that we are not required to refrain from sin. You can choose which position you want to take.

Again, bullc**p! Learn how to read!

The Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142) and Jesus said that the truth set us free (John 8:31-36), yet you say that it keeps us in bondage, so how is that not accusing Jesus of lying?

Wow... you really are confused.

I'm not the one arguing against following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded.

 

[Dino246]

If I quote Scripture to support my position and you say I'm wrong without explaining why you think that I've misunderstood what I've quoted, then you are disagreeing with what I quoted.

Not only wrong, but bloody minded as well.

The laws that the God of Israel has given testify about His nature, so obeying a different set of laws is following a different God with a different nature.

Inventive, but still wrong.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God as it does to describe aspects of the nature of the Mosaic Law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23;23), which is again because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of His nature. So everything that the God of Israel has chosen to command was specifically commanded to teach us how to testify about different aspects of His nature. Moreover, by testifying about aspects of God's nature by obeying the Mosaic Law we are expressing our love for those aspects of His nature, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to God's commandments. So knowing, loving, worshiping, believing in, and testifying about the God of Israel does require obedience the Mosaic Law.

I see brevity is not your strength... and neither is proofreading.

God is sovereign, so none of it is not an available option, or at least not an option that leads to a good end.

Wrong. Those in Christ are not bound to the Mosaic Law. We are under a different covenant.

You should not interpreted Hebrews 8:13 in a way that contradicts Hebrews 8:10.

I don't, but you do!

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8)

Wrong yet again. Exodus 31 says the Sabbath is is a sign between God and the Israelites forever. It does not say anything about the Mosaic covenant. Leviticus 24:8 is speaking about the bread of the Presence, not the Mosaic covenant. You don't read too good.

, so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that it does plus more,

Since your condition is wrong, your consequent assertion is irrelevant.

which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)

Wrong. "Obsolete" means "no longer produced or used; out of date". As a verb clause, "to make obsolete" means, "cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new".

which is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

That is foolish! The NEW covenant is based on better promised and has a superior mediator but does NOT require following the Mosaic Law! Your position is simply nutty.

It is one thing for you to make an unsupported claim that I am wrong and another thing for you to demonstrate that I am wrong.

Since this is rooted in you claiming that I am saying your quotation of Scripture is wrong, it's silly.

According to the NAS Greek Lexicon and other Jewish texts, anyone can fulfill the law by correctly doing the things that it instructs, so it is incorrect to think that it applies only to him. In Galatians 5:4, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that anyone can do, not to something unique to Jesus.

You don't grasp the concept of context.

I see that you are unable to counter what I've said.

I yawn because your verbiage is lengthy and only barely relevant so I haven't bothered with it.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about following what Christ taught.

Wrong... yet again. Being a Christian is believing that Christ died for your sins and will raise you up after physical death.

If someone breaks a law, then they need to repent and return to obedience, and the fact that we can repent after we have broken a law again demonstrates that the Mosaic Law does not require prefect obedience.

What is the penalty for sin?

Every example of faith lists in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works, so that is not contrary to the definition of faith giving in Hebrews 11:1.

Every example is someone who acted according to what they could not see in the natural.

The neglects how it makes sense to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed. The way to believe that Jesus is good is by doing good works that testify about his goodness in obedience to God's law, or in other words, the way to believe in the one who is the embodiment if God's way is by embodying God's word in accordance with following his example.

In John 6:28-29, when the disciples asked Jesus, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” what was the answer He gave?

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we are required to obey it is the position that we are required refrain from sin while the position that we are not required to obey it is the position that we are not required to refrain from sin. You can choose which position you want to take.

You're deeply confused... and wrong once again.

The Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142) and Jesus said that the truth set us free (John 8:31-36), yet you say that it keeps us in bondage, so how is that not accusing Jesus of lying?

When you learn not to make ridiculous and completely unfounded accusations, I'll consider answering.

I'm not the one arguing against following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded.

Passive-aggressive hogwash. Your position is completely wrongheaded.

 

[Dino246]

If I quote Scripture to support my position and you say I'm wrong without explaining why you think that I've misunderstood what I've quoted, then you are disagreeing with what I quoted.

Now I'm going to quote Scripture to show all the things you MUST do to obey the Torah, as you believe is required:

Exodus 20:24 ‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

You believe that a Christian must build an altar of earth.


Exodus 21:12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.”

Exodus 21:17 “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.”

Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.

You believe that Christians must put to death any who commit such sins.


Exodus 22:29b-30 “You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.”

Give them over, Christian! You don't get to keep your firstborn!


Exodus 26:10-13 “Make an ark[b] of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.

Exodus 26:14 And thou shalt make a covering for the tent of rams' skins dyed red, and a covering above of badgers' skins.

Exodus 28:13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

Exodus 28:15-20 “Fashion a breastpiece for making decisions—the work of skilled hands. Make it like the ephod: of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen. 16 It is to be square—a span[a] long and a span wide—and folded double. 17 Then mount four rows of precious stones on it. The first row shall be carnelian, chrysolite and beryl; 18 the second row shall be turquoise, lapis lazuli and emerald; 19 the third row shall be jacinth, agate and amethyst; 20 the fourth row shall be topaz, onyx and jasper.[b] Mount them in gold filigree settings.”

You believe that Christians must build a tabernacle according to the instructions in the Torah.


Leviticus 1:2b ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.”

Leviticus 4:27-31 “‘If any member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, when they realize their guilt 28 and the sin they have committed becomes known, they must bring as their offering for the sin they committed a female goat without defect. 29 They are to lay their hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 31 They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.”

You believe that as a Christian, you must sacrifice a clean animal when you sin unintentionally.


Leviticus 12:1-7a The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.”

You believe that a female Christian who gives birth must bring an animal or bird to a priest to be sacrificed for “cleansing from her flow of blood”.


Leviticus 13:24 “When someone has a burn on their skin and a reddish-white or white spot appears in the raw flesh of the burn, 25 the priest is to examine the spot, and if the hair in it has turned white”

You believe that a Christian with a burn injury must go to a priest to be examined.


Good luck finding a priest. Fail to do what the Torah commands, and you have sinned, and must take an animal to the priest at the tabernacle. Oh… right… those don’t today! What The Torah doesn’t allow for that problem? Well, you’re hooped! No redemption for you, foolish Galatian!


So, go and read Paul's letter to the Galatians. Then read it again. And a third time. Then go read Hebrews, then read it again.


Then and only then, come back and respond.

 

[Aaron56]

@Dino246 quit interrupting Soyeong

He has acacia wood to cut and ephahs to measure for the unleavened bread.

 

[Soyeong]

Now I'm going to quote Scripture to show all the things you MUST do to obey the Torah, as you believe is required:

Exodus 20:24 ‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

You believe that a Christian must build an altar of earth.


Exodus 21:12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.”

Exodus 21:17 “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.”

Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.

You believe that Christians must put to death any who commit such sins.


Exodus 22:29b-30 “You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.”

Give them over, Christian! You don't get to keep your firstborn!


Exodus 26:10-13 “Make an ark[b] of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.

Exodus 26:14 And thou shalt make a covering for the tent of rams' skins dyed red, and a covering above of badgers' skins.

Exodus 28:13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

Exodus 28:15-20 “Fashion a breastpiece for making decisions—the work of skilled hands. Make it like the ephod: of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen. 16 It is to be square—a span[a] long and a span wide—and folded double. 17 Then mount four rows of precious stones on it. The first row shall be carnelian, chrysolite and beryl; 18 the second row shall be turquoise, lapis lazuli and emerald; 19 the third row shall be jacinth, agate and amethyst; 20 the fourth row shall be topaz, onyx and jasper.[b] Mount them in gold filigree settings.”

You believe that Christians must build a tabernacle according to the instructions in the Torah.


Leviticus 1:2b ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.”

Leviticus 4:27-31 “‘If any member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, when they realize their guilt 28 and the sin they have committed becomes known, they must bring as their offering for the sin they committed a female goat without defect. 29 They are to lay their hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 31 They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.”

You believe that as a Christian, you must sacrifice a clean animal when you sin unintentionally.


Leviticus 12:1-7a The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.”

You believe that a female Christian who gives birth must bring an animal or bird to a priest to be sacrificed for “cleansing from her flow of blood”.


Leviticus 13:24 “When someone has a burn on their skin and a reddish-white or white spot appears in the raw flesh of the burn, 25 the priest is to examine the spot, and if the hair in it has turned white”

You believe that a Christian with a burn injury must go to a priest to be examined.


Good luck finding a priest. Fail to do what the Torah commands, and you have sinned, and must take an animal to the priest at the tabernacle. Oh… right… those don’t today! What The Torah doesn’t allow for that problem? Well, you’re hooped! No redemption for you, foolish Galatian!


So, go and read Paul's letter to the Galatians. Then read it again. And a third time. Then go read Hebrews, then read it again.


Then and only then, come back and respond.

The issue of how good of job I am doing of obeying the instructions of the God of Israel is independent of the issue of whether His followers should follow His instructions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. Even if I were the biggest hypocrite in the world who was living in complete disobedience to the instructions of the God of Israel, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that His followers should follow His instructions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. If you find the instructions for how to follow the God of Israel to be objectionable, then you can choose not to follow Him if you want, though I wouldn't recommend it.

When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which contained instruction in regard to temple practice that couldn't be followed because the temple had just been destroyed, so God honored their obedience to the laws that they could obey. So laws in regard to temple practice should only be followed when there is a temple in which to practice them. I have read Galatians and Hebrews, which is why I know that you are blatantly taking that verse out of context in order to apply it to me and why I disagree with your interpretation of them. Either my interpretation of those books is incorrect and we should still obey God's instructions or your interpretation is incorrect and we should still obey God's instructions, but either way we should still obey God's instructions.

Not only wrong, but bloody minded as well.


Inventive, but still wrong.


I see brevity is not your strength... and neither is proofreading.


Wrong. Those in Christ are not bound to the Mosaic Law. We are under a different covenant.


I don't, but you do!


Wrong yet again. Exodus 31 says the Sabbath is is a sign between God and the Israelites forever. It does not say anything about the Mosaic covenant. Leviticus 24:8 is speaking about the bread of the Presence, not the Mosaic covenant. You don't read too good.


Since your condition is wrong, your consequent assertion is irrelevant.


Wrong. "Obsolete" means "no longer produced or used; out of date". As a verb clause, "to make obsolete" means, "cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new".


That is foolish! The NEW covenant is based on better promised and has a superior mediator but does NOT require following the Mosaic Law! Your position is simply nutty.


Since this is rooted in you claiming that I am saying your quotation of Scripture is wrong, it's silly.


You don't grasp the concept of context.


I yawn because your verbiage is lengthy and only barely relevant so I haven't bothered with it.


Wrong... yet again. Being a Christian is believing that Christ died for your sins and will raise you up after physical death.


What is the penalty for sin?


Every example is someone who acted according to what they could not see in the natural.


In John 6:28-29, when the disciples asked Jesus, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” what was the answer He gave?


You're deeply confused... and wrong once again.


When you learn not to make ridiculous and completely unfounded accusations, I'll consider answering.


Passive-aggressive hogwash. Your position is completely wrongheaded.

There is a huge difference between demonstrating that I am wrong and you repeatedly insisting that I am wrong in lieu of being able to demonstrate that I am wrong.

 

[Dino246]

The issue of how good of job I am doing of obeying the instructions of the God of Israel is independent of the issue of whether His followers should follow His instructions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

You're sidestepping. Do you believe that you as a Christian (and all other Christians) must follow the instructions that I quoted in post #271, along with the other 600-odd statues in the Law, or be counted unrighteous in God's sight, in need of repentance, sinful, lawless, or whatever other synonym you want to throw at it?

 

[Soyeong]

You're sidestepping. Do you believe that you as a Christian (and all other Christians) must follow the instructions that I quoted in post #271, along with the other 600-odd statues in the Law, or be counted unrighteous in God's sight, in need of repentance, sinful, lawless, or whatever other synonym you want to throw at it?

No. God's laws have circumstances under which they should be obeyed, so even when the law was first given to Moses, there was not a single person who was required to obey all 613 of them, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, judges, men, women, children, widows, those who are married, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. A large portion of the 613 laws were given to govern the conduct of Levities, which non-Levites were not permitted to obey. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years so laws in regard to temple practice should only be obeyed when there is a temple in which to practice them, but we should be faithful to obey the laws that we are able to obey.

In 1 John 3:7, whoever practices righteousness is righteous even as they are righteous. While he only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of righteous works in order to earn righteousness as wage, becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness through faith in obedience to God's law. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous, for example, Gods law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares to be righteous through faith, He is declaring us to be someone who practices His righteousness through faith in obedience to His law, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:27-31). Someone who is practicing what God has revealed to be sin through His law is practicing sin/lawlessness and needs to repent in accordance with the Gospel (1 John 3:4).

 

[Dino246]

No. God's laws have circumstances under which they should be obeyed, so even when the law was first given to Moses, there was not a single person who was required to obey all 613 of them, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth.

At least you gave a straight answer before sidestepping again. The law requires circumcision of all males (Genesis 17:10-14). Specifically, "Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant" (v. 14).

However, in his letter to the Galatians, Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote the following:

"We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (2:15-16).

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (2:21)

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?" (3:2-3)

'For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”' (3:10-12)

"Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." (3:19)

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. (3:24-25)

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (5:1)

I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (5:3-4)

If you are a genuine Christian, you are right with God BY FAITH, not by the works of the Law. It's that simple. You don't obtain your relationship with God by works of the Law, but BY FAITH, and you don't maintain your relationship with God by works of the Law, but BY FAITH.

Again, faith is certainty in what we do not see (Hebrews 11:1), not compliance with the Mosaic Law.

Until you understand and believe this, you remain "fallen from grace", and further promotion of your position makes you a Judaizer.[/QUOTE]

 

[Soyeong]

At least you gave a straight answer before sidestepping again. The law requires circumcision of all males (Genesis 17:10-14). Specifically, "Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant" (v. 14).

However, in his letter to the Galatians, Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote the following:

"We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (2:15-16).

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (2:21)


"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?" (3:2-3)

'For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”' (3:10-12)

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-3 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite. Rather, it is relying on works of the law instead of the Book of the Law that causes someone to come under the curse for not relying on the Book of the Law. In Galatian 3:10-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 saying that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God while thinking that we shouldn't trust His instructions, and denying that God's instructions are of faith would be denying the faithfulness of God.

We do not earn our justification or righteous as the result of having first obeyed God's law because it was never given as a way of doing that, which makes it that much more true of works of the law, but that fact does not mean that we are not required to obey God's law for the purposes for which it was given.

"Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." (3:19)

In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so the New Covenant does not nullify our need to obey God's law in connection with the promise. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus came a the promised see to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, not to cause us to be free to do what God's law reveals to be wickedness.

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. (3:24-25)

In Matthew 7:23 Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law leads us to Christ because it was given as a gift to teach us how to know him, but does not lead us to him so that we can then reject what he taught and go back to living in sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, in Christ, through faith, and children of Abraham and heirs of the promise is directly connected to living in obedience to God's law. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (5:1)

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to His law, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so you are not correctly identify what Paul was referring to as the yoke of slavery. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free.

I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (5:3-4)

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:3-4 as Paul warning against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace, and it would again be absurd to interpret that as him wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him to fall from grace. You're just pulling out verses from Galatians that you think support your position without being bothered by the fact that your interpretation is completely absurd. You should be quicker to think that you have misunderstood everything in Galatians than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret God's word as speaking against obeying God word.

If you are a genuine Christian, you are right with God BY FAITH, not by the works of the Law. It's that simple. You don't obtain your relationship with God by works of the Law, but BY FAITH, and you don't maintain your relationship with God by works of the Law, but BY FAITH.

Indeed, we are not required to earn our righteousness as the result of obeying either God's law or works of the law, but the fact that we don't earn our righteousness by obeying God does not mean that we aren no still obligated to obey what He has commanded. God's law is His instructions for how to grow in a relationship with him through faith, not for how to earn a relationship with him.

Again, faith is certainty in what we do not see (Hebrews 11:1), not compliance with the Mosaic Law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did no earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith complete his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Until you understand and believe this, you remain "fallen from grace", and further promotion of your position makes you a Judaizer.

[/QUOTE]
I do not hold the position that we earn our justification as the result of obeying works of the law or the position that Gentiles are required to become circumcises in order to earn our justification, and in fact I strongly disagree with those positions, so you are incorrect to say that I have fallen from grace or that I am a Judaizer.

 

[Dino246]

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-3 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite

You're completely missing the point of Paul's words!

Deuteronomy is written to Israel, NOT to Christians. For the ancient Israelite who was under the Sinai covenant, obedience to the Law is the only way to come under God's blessing. For the Christian, FAITH is the only way we come under God's blessing. They are two distinct covenants.

For the gentile Christian, attempting to add anything to the grace we have in Christ by our obedience to the Law is telling God that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient!

I will not do that. I will stand by faith in the COMPLETED WORK of Jesus Christ.

I see no benefit in continuing this conversation until and unless you change your mind.

 

[Soyeong]

You're completely missing the point of Paul's words!
And how do you know that you are not the one who is completely missing the point of Paul's words?

Deuteronomy is written to Israel, NOT to Christians.

The fact that Deuteronomy was written to Israel does not make it any less true or authoritative. For example, Christ quoted three times from Deuteronomy to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed its authority. Furthermore, Christ is the Jewish Messiah of Judaism in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, so it is incorrect for you to think that Israelites are not Christians.

For the ancient Israelite who was under the Sinai covenant, obedience to the Law is the only way to come under God's blessing. For the Christian, FAITH is the only way we come under God's blessing. They are two distinct covenants.

For the gentile Christian, attempting to add anything to the grace we have in Christ by our obedience to the Law is telling God that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient!

I will not do that. I will stand by faith in the COMPLETED WORK of Jesus Christ.

I see no benefit in continuing this conversation until and unless you change your mind.

"Faith" and "grace" are not concepts that were invented in the NT, but are important concepts throughout the OT. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. There has never been a way to be blessed other than through faith and there has never been a way to express that faith other than through the Torah, but when it comes to the Torah, you do not have faith in Him to guide you in how to rightly live. In Jeremiah 31:33, it directly states that the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so to reject the Torah is to reject the New Covenant and to refuse to have faith. The fact that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant and that it is distinct from the Mosaic Covenant does not mean that it does not involve following the Torah.

in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey the Torah is the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is acting in accordance with the grace that we have in Christ and is standing by fait in the completed work if Christ (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to tell God that Christ's sacrifice is insufficient. The way to have faith in God is not by refusing to have faith in what He has instructed. When God has instructed something and you say that we shouldn't obey what God has instructed, then it is not a difficult choice to figure out which one we should follow.

 

[Blade]

Thanks OP I came back and 14 pages.. on this sub not a shock. Now it seems the op never wanted to talk about it. Like being in Church the pastor says this then leaves. Haha.. talk among your selfs now