Andy Stanley's Apostasy

ResidentAlien · Oct 11, 2023

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” Charles Stanley, Eternal Security, Can You Be Sure?, pg. 93

“And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful.” Ibid., pg. 94

"You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our Lord." Ibid., pg. 80

"It is possible to be a child of God and never a disciple of Christ. We can live the Christian life with the assurance of heaven as our ultimate destiny but miss the process of maturing as a disciple." Stanley, Handbook For Christian Living, pg. 505

LOL, can be a child of God and never a disciple of Christ??? Is this guy for real? Do people really think he's a reliable teacher of God's word? Wow . . . just, wow.

ResidentAlien · Oct 11, 2023

It seems to me the above doctrines are what enable people to think they're saved and still live whatever immoral lifestyle they choose. Doctrines of demons really.

oyster67 · Oct 11, 2023

HeIsHere said:

Ephesians 5:
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

PennEd · Oct 11, 2023

07-07-07 said:

I'm not Baptist.

07-07-07 said:

Yeah, I'm thinking you are preaching heresy believing Jesus lied when He said

John 6:39
New King James Version
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

So was somebody saved and then Jesus lost them?

Or maybe you think Jesus was untruthful when He said

John 10:28-29

New King James Version
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

See how that works?

PennEd · Oct 11, 2023

oyster67 said:

Wow!

I genuinely fear for your salvation, thinking you need to help Jesus to ATTAIN or maintain your salvation!

PennEd · Oct 11, 2023

oyster67 said:

Yes. EVERYONE born of God is a special exception!

At least you got SOMETHING right.

oyster67 · Oct 11, 2023

PennEd said:

John 17:12
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

PennEd said:

PennEd · Oct 11, 2023

oyster67 said:

Yep. That's definitely Scripture.

No bearing on what I posted though.

The_Watchers_2017 · Oct 11, 2023

Jesus, knew that His specific 11 Disciples, were going to be Eternally Saved, once He finished His Work upon the Cross, Defeated Death and the Grave, Resurrected.

but, He still Commanded them to say a DAILY PRAYER that included:
(if) you [[DO NOT]] forgive those who sinned against you
Your Father in Heaven, [[WILL NOT]] forgive you of your sins.

^
clearly, we see Immediately, these Eternally Saved Disciples, are saying a Daily Prayer that ASKS for Forgiveness of SINS.
and to have THOSE SINS, after one is ETERNALLY SAVED, still requires Forgiveness.
but in order to get Forgiveness, there's a WARNING ATTACHED, they FIRST must Forgive those who sinned against them.

the real question is:
what if you don't do this Daily Prayer, and do not ask for Forgiveness, and Forgive those that SIN against you, and the FATHER in Heaven [[DOES NOT]] Forgive Your SINS?

will this be You?

20. Therefore by their fruit you will know them.
21. It is not everyone that says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord'', who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, 'My Lord, my Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out demons, and have done many mighty works in your name?'
23. And then I will confess to them, 'I have never known you, remove yourselves far from me, you workers of evil.'

...21. It is not everyone that says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord'', who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.
^
isn't the Father's Will you Forgive Others to be Forgiven?

(if) you [[DO NOT]] forgive those who sinned against you
Your Father in Heaven, [[WILL NOT]] forgive you of your sins

so, by not doing the Father's Will, they are subject to Verses 20-23

Cameron143 · Oct 11, 2023

There is a difference between believing in eternal security and license to sin. The problem enters when the two are conflated. There is also a difference between being saved and not being saved. And the problem enters when one is not saved but assumed to be.
No truly saved person excuses their sin for long before the Holy Spirit convicts them of it. If the offender doesn't repent, chastening would begin until repentance comes. In a few cases, severe chastening, and even death may occur. Where there is no chastening, there is no salvation.
I understand why those who don't believe in OSAS would believe it is license to sin. Many who call themselves Christians live little differently than nonbelievers. But the simple answer is that they are simply nonbelievers. They aren't be chastened, and cannot be the children of God because God chastens all He loves.
Another thing to look for is whether or not an individual believes the behavior is sinful or not. If the behavior is sinful but the individual doesn't believe it is, then there is no Holy Spirit indwelling to convict of sin. This individual may even have their conscience seered, as they don't seem even to respond to good and evil.

oyster67 · Oct 11, 2023

PennEd said:

It bears down heavily and directly to what you said. It squashes it like a bug.

Cameron143 · Oct 11, 2023

Who woulda thunk it...a bear and a bug playing squash?

ResidentAlien · Oct 11, 2023

Have to make a correction. The page number of the last quote should be 461, not 505.

oyster67 · Oct 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Which means they are not going to Heaven.

oyster67 · Oct 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Or a bear eating a squash with the bug inside?

true_believer · Oct 11, 2023

After reading this commentary about Andy Stanley, I'm not sure why any takes him seriously anymore?
https://www.christianpost.com/voice...ched-himself-from-new-testament-theology.html

Fillan · Oct 11, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Hello! Some would describe that category of person as never having been saved in the first instance, professing faith in God but denying him by their works. Others would say that person had 'lost their salvation'. Perhaps it depends on how salvation in the first instance is viewed. Being 'born again' or 'born from above', is this a completely life changing and transforming experience or not?

1 Corinthians 5: 17-19 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. he old has gone and the new has come. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.

I would say that it is. But I would say that the issue today is that the gospel is not being preached to people, we're in the Last Days, many churches and preachers are telling people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. An ear tickling message cannot save, but the true gospel has power to transform lives. God Bless You, have a great day

HeIsHere · Oct 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

A truly saved person?

Is there such a thing as an untruly saved person?

Cameron143 · Oct 11, 2023

HeIsHere said:

It is just one way to describe the difference between those who are saved from those who aren't but believe they are.

HeIsHere · Oct 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

I see, however,

the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of righteousness not sin.

The Holy Spirit points the believer to his/her righteousness found in the perfect works Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Andy Stanley's Apostasy

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