Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

[romans113336]

Many years ago I brewed a mixture of loose tea leaves and drank some of it before leaving for work...

It was pre-2000, before I had a car. Walking up the street, suddenly I knew I was going to hurl.

Good thing there was an open restaurant near-by! But no long term effects beyond that.

Is your dialysis done now, or did the leaves do more permanent damage?

Wish I would've listened to my body... it was like I was having an allergic reaction... woke up wheezing on the third day... wasn't sure what was doing it... after a week of eating the leaves, I had the stroke/TIA.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I can't believe how hard it is to keep stuff on topic!

And @Magenta is often against me, but I wouldn't mind having the kind of grace she has! I couldn't call sweet things bitter! Be careful!

Are we not Christians

For he that is not against us is on our part.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There is no question that predestination is a Bible truth. The problem arises when people misrepresent and misapply it. There are only certain specific things which are predestined. and definitely not according to Calvinistic misrepresentation.

1. The glorification and perfection of the saints is predestined. See Ephesians 1.

2. The crucifixion and perfect sacrifice of Christ was predestined from before the foundation of the world. See 1 Peter 1.

3. The appointment of certain men to certain ministries e.g. Paul from his mother's womb. .

Other than that God allows men to exercise their free wills and face the consequences. And because of His divine foreknowledge He knows what those consequences will be. So in that sense they are predestined. But not because God was responsible for the end result. No one's salvation is predestined since salvation is offered to all mankind.

Why did God hate Esau before he was born?

 

[romans113336]

Are we not Christians

For he that is not against us is on our part.

I do not know what kind of Christian you are if you can speak evil against @Magenta, plus you've uttered many heterodox things. I usually don't even speak with people who talk about "Kenites", and such. They usually aren't interested in truth.

 

[Magenta]

Wish I would've listened to my body... it was like I was having an allergic reaction... woke up wheezing
on the third day... wasn't sure what was doing it... after a week of eating the leaves, I had the stroke/TIA.

I am so sorry to hear that. Was it recommended to eat the leaves? Just curious, because many things
are promoted for our well being that may not really do anything or anything good or even have adverse
affects such as you experienced. I do spend money on supplements, but most of the time have no idea if
they are helping or not. After all my cancer surgeries, though, I was prone to UTIs, and cranberry capsules
really really help with that, when I feel I am on the verge of one coming on. Chases it right away! One of
them the pain went right into my kidneys, and that was a type of pain I had never felt before nor ever wished
to feel again. It made me wonder how people can live with it ongoing like that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why did God hate Esau before he was born?

Because He knew what Esau and the Edomites would become. That is God's divine foreknowledge acting in the interest of Israel.

 

[Truthnightmare]

This dance we are doing... you falsely accuse, and I call you on it. You refuse to own up. Rinse and repeat.

You have associated me with the devil so many times, I really don’t take anything you say seriously.

 

[Magenta]

Why did God hate Esau before he was born?

Esau and Jacob were nations in Rebekah's womb. Jacob = Isreal, and Edomites are God's enemy.

 

[Magenta]

You have associated me with the devil so many times, I really don’t take anything you say seriously.

How many times? As many times as you've falsely accused me of something?

 

[Truthnightmare]

I do not know what kind of Christian you are if you can speak evil against @Magenta, plus you've uttered many heterodox things. I usually don't even speak with people who talk about "Kenites", and such. They usually aren't interested in truth.

Gotcha, so I call her bitter, and that’s bad, she associates me with the devil, that’s ok.

What’s wrong with talking about the kenites? they are mentioned in the word of God, and referenced in the Strongs.

And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, andSuchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab

 

[Magenta]

Gotcha, so I call her bitter, and that’s bad, she associates me with the devil, that’s ok.

You said a lot more than that. I associate your false accusations with the devil, yes.

 

[Truthnightmare]

How many times? As many times as you've falsely accused me of something?

Tell me…

 

[Magenta]

Tell me…

I'm not counting. But it seems endless, since you don't stop... and refuse to own up.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Esau and Jacob were nations in Rebekah's womb. Jacob = Isreal, and Edomites are God's enemy.

Edom is the land of Rosh.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I'm not counting. But it seems endless, since you don't stop... and refuse to own up.

You can’t be serious, what have I accused you of? Surely if it’s endless you can post something.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Edom is the land of Rosh.

So what? Totally irrelevant.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You said a lot more than that. I associate your false accusations with the devil, yes.

But you will not tell me what I said.

 

[Truthnightmare]

So what? Totally irrelevant.

You probably missed a couple of post.

 

[John146]

They were chose before the foundation of the world. That means they were chosen before they were born. The foundation was before flesh man.

But that should not be shocking, Jeremiah was chose before he was born.

Esau was hated before he was born.

And yet, no scripture to back this up. Btw, Esau did not hate Jacob before he was born.

 

[John146]

A short study on this subject previously posted here and elsewhere.

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.
Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets.

So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).
This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Not one of those verses containing the word "predestination" is concerning salvation. It is actually speaking of those already saved. It has to do with the future adoption, the redemption of the body, conforming to the image of Jesus Christ.