Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Hello turbo. Thanks for your Q. It's good to discuss this emotive subject in a friendly manner and share viewpoints. I'll think about what you said. That's a tough passage you quoted, in more ways than one!
In 1 Corinthians 5 there's a specific case then a general principle.
Verse 5: hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
This man in verse 5 who is handed over to Satan, the purpose it says is that his spirit maybe saved. A shock to cause him to repent. If he is indeed born again he will be saved.
Verse 11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.
The key word in verse 11 is 'claims'. Claiming is not automatically being. Professing to know God but denying him by their works (Titus 1:16). It reminds me of the Lord Jesus talking about watching for wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). A wolf was never a sheep, it's a predator in disguise. When a wolf is unmasked as a wolf it hasn't lost it's salvation, it hasn't lost it's membership of the flock, it was never of the flock to begin with. So booting an immoral person out, it seems like protecting the flock from a wolf in disguise, however in the perhaps less likely case of verse 5, a born again believer in some dreadful situation, the shock of being turned over to Satan is that he may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Hope this is of some interest, God Bless
In 1 Corinthians 5 there's a specific case then a general principle.
Verse 5: hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
This man in verse 5 who is handed over to Satan, the purpose it says is that his spirit maybe saved. A shock to cause him to repent. If he is indeed born again he will be saved.
Verse 11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.
The key word in verse 11 is 'claims'. Claiming is not automatically being. Professing to know God but denying him by their works (Titus 1:16). It reminds me of the Lord Jesus talking about watching for wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). A wolf was never a sheep, it's a predator in disguise. When a wolf is unmasked as a wolf it hasn't lost it's salvation, it hasn't lost it's membership of the flock, it was never of the flock to begin with. So booting an immoral person out, it seems like protecting the flock from a wolf in disguise, however in the perhaps less likely case of verse 5, a born again believer in some dreadful situation, the shock of being turned over to Satan is that he may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Hope this is of some interest, God Bless
1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
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Of course Jesus expects His people to do some stuff after getting born again. We are saved to serve and not saved to sit. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Yet we are still saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Faith "only" here in James is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works, as we see in James 2:14. SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith - key word. *Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference!
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
Again, "faith only" here equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.
If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!
In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to reaping corruption, eternal life is reaped by those who sow to the Spirit, which is only those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
We are justified (accounted as righteous - to render righteous or such he ought to be) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and we are justified (shown to be righteous - to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)
Straw man argument. Attacking Martin Luther does not help your case and Roman Catholics are no strangers to drunkenness. 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Verses 9 and 10 is descriptive of the unrighteous and not the righteous. You seemed to have missed that.
In Galatians 5:19-21, we read - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
*You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*
Roman Catholics along with other works-salvationists are in error. That is the answer.
Faith "only" here in James is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works, as we see in James 2:14. SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith - key word. *Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference!
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
Again, "faith only" here equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.
If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!
In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to reaping corruption, eternal life is reaped by those who sow to the Spirit, which is only those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
We are justified (accounted as righteous - to render righteous or such he ought to be) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and we are justified (shown to be righteous - to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)
Straw man argument. Attacking Martin Luther does not help your case and Roman Catholics are no strangers to drunkenness. 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Verses 9 and 10 is descriptive of the unrighteous and not the righteous. You seemed to have missed that.
In Galatians 5:19-21, we read - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
*You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*
Roman Catholics along with other works-salvationists are in error. That is the answer.
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I should have asked if we could take it slow, sorry. If we put too much out there at one time, points tend to get buried and never realized. I’m glad you use scripture and explain your understanding of the scripture. You’ve made a lot of statements I would love to address and hopefully we will in time. So If it's ok with you, I would like to go back to the point I was trying to make.
You said and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do. I submitted my rebuttal proof text in Matt. 25 because it directly addressed your statement.
Your reply The "lambs" of Matthew 25 were made so by Christ Could you point to the part of the passage, and/or context of the chapter, that tells us that?
You said and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do. I submitted my rebuttal proof text in Matt. 25 because it directly addressed your statement.
Your reply The "lambs" of Matthew 25 were made so by Christ Could you point to the part of the passage, and/or context of the chapter, that tells us that?
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The Israelites were saved out of Egypt in the sense that they were delivered out of Egypt. They were not saved in the sense that they were all born again at the moment they left Egypt. Afterward God destroyed those who did not believe. NOT 'quit' believing. That is your eisegesis. The angels were not born into sin as mankind is. The fallen angels chose to leave their habitation and follow Satan. We choose to either receive Christ through faith or remain in darkness. (Acts 26:18) Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.
Again, the text says believed not/did not believe and NOT 'quit' believing. Don't add your preconceived beliefs to the text.
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19).
In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Eternal security.
Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
Humans are not born perfect but are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12) Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) Works-salvationists remain fixated on sin, performance, self-effort because they are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Instead, they turn to works, performance, sinless perfection etc.. as the solution to their sin problem not realizing that Jesus Christ is the solution to their sin problem. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) SELF righteousness, SELF preservation and SELF promotion is all in vain.
Again, the text says believed not/did not believe and NOT 'quit' believing. Don't add your preconceived beliefs to the text.
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19).
In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Eternal security.
Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
Humans are not born perfect but are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12) Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) Works-salvationists remain fixated on sin, performance, self-effort because they are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Instead, they turn to works, performance, sinless perfection etc.. as the solution to their sin problem not realizing that Jesus Christ is the solution to their sin problem. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) SELF righteousness, SELF preservation and SELF promotion is all in vain.
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