Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[romans113336]

There you go again thinking you're the expert - some people never learn.

In case you missed the addition to #2

2. Yup, God is the Savior--never denied that--but you seem not to understand what that may and may not entail.

For instance, in Judges 7, God says He won't save Israel until they whittle their numbers down from 30,000 to 300, getting rid of the fearful men, or else they will say they did it instead of giving God the glory.
After they obey God, and are whittled down to 300, God gives commands, and when the 300 men obey God, God qualifies that as "God getting all the glory as Savior".

God doesn't need to, and doesn't, erase us from the picture to get all the glory--your issue is you don't know Biblical precedent for God getting all the glory, so you subscribe to Monergism as a false way to give God all the glory. You, apparently, just aren't very well versed in Scripture. It's really that simple.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul asserts they had already, at some point, believed the Gospel and received the Spirit (Gal 3:1-3), so, sorry, your answer doesn't work.

You dont understand Paul, those whom God saved, they are given a new heart, and they will never depart from God, thats a Promise of God Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[turbosixx]

Hello turbo. Thanks for your reply. That's a great passage:

Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

Another difference I would suggest is that believers keep the Law of Christ because of what he has already done for us. Our obedience is relational, not transactional. Because we have been saved and redeemed we obey the Lord, we love because forgive one another because God has forgiven our sins in Christ. We're not trying to earn our salvation or keep our salvation, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. God Bless You

It is definitely relational. I would suggest it was relational under the old law as well. Look at all God had done for Israel, His people. One of the reasons God set Israel apart is for our learning. We learn from their mistakes.

As Christians we are expected to follow Him and cannot live any way we choose. Becoming a Christian does not turn us into robots where we have no choice but to follow Jesus. We are still human. Yes, Jesus's blood cleanses our sins but it is not a license to sin. God's graces covers us but there is a point at which Christ will "pull our candlestick".
and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Are you familiar with the situation of the man in 1 Cor. 5? Maybe you can help me see it from your perspective. I don't see how this man was not going to lose his salvation if he did not repent.

 

[brightfame52]

Does the believer not become "condemned" for "sin"?

Romans 14
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

What happened to his "justification", which you insist cannot be thwarted?

A Believer , or anyone Christ died for, can never be condemned by God. But now a saved persons conscience can condemn them for doing wrong, or for doing what they may see as wrong.

John wrote to believers 1 Jn 3:20


For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

But God doesnt never condemn them as far as their Salvation is concerned.

 

[turbosixx]

Not exactly sure what you're asking? A church isn't a building - its essence is found in its leadership and the doctrines they espouse and follow. We know God's spiritual church - the church of the firstborn- can't be the one in view because their garments were given to them though Christ and His righteousness, and therefore, are clean and cannot become soiled.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. The leadership of the churches in Revelation is Christ as the head and IF they have local leaders it will be elders and deacons as the NT prescribes. The seven churches are all churches of Christ and they are representative. They go from all good to all bad. They all have a star in Jesus's hand and a lampstand.

The Lord's church is made up of people. People are not perfect. After becoming a Christian, we continue to sin (soil garments) and if we say we have no sin we are a liar. Paul told the elders to be alert pay attention to themselves and the flock, for men from among themselves would twist things and led disciples away. Paul knows they're good now but it's gonna take work to keep it.

Jesus doesn't just pull the lampstand at the first moment they start to drift. He has patience, mercy and disciplines them to turn them back. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

 

[rogerg]

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. The leadership of the churches in Revelation is Christ as the head and IF they have local leaders it will be elders and deacons as the NT prescribes. The seven churches are all churches of Christ and they are representative. They go from all good to all bad. They all have a star in Jesus's hand and a lampstand.

The Lord's church is made up of people. People are not perfect. After becoming a Christian, we continue to sin (soil garments) and if we say we have no sin we are a liar. Paul told the elders to be alert pay attention to themselves and the flock, for men from among themselves would twist things and led disciples away. Paul knows they're good now but it's gonna take work to keep it.

Jesus doesn't just pull the lampstand at the first moment they start to drift. He has patience, mercy and disciplines them to turn them back. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

The leader of the churches He criticized was not Christ. Had He been, then the severity of the warnings He gave wouldn't have been necessary. While not good in any event, it's one thing to sin temporal earthly sin but quite another to commit spiritual sin.

Regarding the lampstand, I never said that He did (or does) immediately pull it, did I? My point was that He gave warning
to the true Christians within those congregation He criticized, that if left on their current spiritual path, which path was in not having Christ as Saviour as (their) foundation, that He would pull it. In effect, and as an example to us, this is what He did to OT/NT Israel and the Jewish religion after giving them repeated warnings.

[Mat 23:37-38 KJV]
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I dunno, is your ultimate point that, in and of itself, Christ's offering was insufficient to remit all sin - past, present, future -
for those whom He has saved, or am I missing something? If someone is saved, they were made so, and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do. That being the case, Christ's spotless garment is given to them, and by Him, it cannot be soiled nor taken away. If it could, then they either they weren't saved to begin with, or Christ isn't the Saviour. But Christ is Saviour, man is not. It, being a completely free gift from Him to them solely through Jesus Christ and God's exceedingly great mercy, grace and kindness, man therefore is only a recipient of salvation.
I'm kinda slow so why do you say again what your bottom-line point is, rather than of me trying to reverse engineer into it point by point - which I probably won't be able to correctly do? The points you make above must have a common single unifying theory behind them from/by which they come. If you have already done so, and as I've said, I'm kinda slow, so sorry, I must have missed it.

 

[Jimbone]

If it was written to Christians as you said which was my point why does it have to mention "those who were saved" as you stated above in the opening of your reply? If they, the Hebrews, were Christians, they were saved! I'm not following you at all and you're not making sense. If they were saved, and they were, the warning was to them which infers that there was a danger of them falling away, renouncing Christ and returning to their old religious beliefs, and thus losing their salvation.

What part of "I don't agree with you, and think your argument is kind of weak" are you not getting? I think you believe in a weak and confused God who may save the wrong people that will reject Him later. That ALL the power is in our decisions and we can turn salvation off if we decide the TRUTH just isn't for us. I think your personal interpretation of 1-4 verse(s) seem to contradict a lot more verses that say we are save one time and forever by a POWERFUL God that will keep us. I do not think you're harmonizing the whole of the text and just trying to amplify His weakness and inability to keep His sheep, while highlighting our own power to follow the rules by OUR will. I don't think you see it like that of course, and I do understand 100% why you think that. I believed the exact same thing about the exact same verses before. It makes sense when we think it's our wills running the show. It's not. Not even in our own lives. Like I said there is a LOT of scripture that contradict us being able to LOSE salvation, we have to find the truth by His Spirit leading us, it has to be somewhere in the middle in these cases. It says none of those the Father gives Him will He lose, it also tells us we need to follow and seek for Him, but does it say it's by our power we follow Him? Do we seek, or does He draw? Are we elect chosen from the foundations, or do we decide on the fly hour by hour, do we really have "free will", or are we slaves of either sin or Christ? Does He tell those who fell away, "You should have tried harder and not fallen away", or "I NEVER knew you and you were NEVER of us"?

You say I don't make sense, yet your God saves the wrong people who will end up rejecting Him later. Why? Maybe because not enough power to keep them I guess. You declare what these few scripture mean "fo show", yet I haven't once heard the way you balance them with the others that seemingly contradict what you believe. I have laid out why I believe what I do about the nature of what salvation is, and what being born again in Christ is.

I do understand your argument and understanding of the Hebrews 6 scripture, even though don't agree with your conclusion of what it mean. I don't really see any point of repeating ourselves at each other to the point we're just mindlessly bickering for no reason. I just want to end with a summery of what you're arguing for, from my point of view.

You are arguing for us to fear a God that we might walk away from, it's all up to that person. I do not understand how anyone that was spiritually reborn in truth, reconnected with His Spirit making them all new, making them whole as we were created to be, revealing Himself to them for really REAL, could/would ever decide, "Nahh, I'm going back to a deceptive lie".

This is impossible in my experience and by His word. It would honestly make Him a kind of weak and bumbling God in my opinion. I do not see how anyone that has seem the power of the King that saved me could ever turn away, or argue that anyone else could. That's just my take on it. Anyway I hope you have a great day regardless of this conversation, I like thinking on these things with other believers.

 

[DJT_47]

What part of "I don't agree with you, and think your argument is kind of weak" are you not getting? I think you believe in a weak and confused God who may save the wrong people that will reject Him later. That ALL the power is in our decisions and we can turn salvation off if we decide the TRUTH just isn't for us. I think your personal interpretation of 1-4 verse(s) seem to contradict a lot more verses that say we are save one time and forever by a POWERFUL God that will keep us. I do not think you're harmonizing the whole of the text and just trying to amplify His weakness and inability to keep His sheep, while highlighting our own power to follow the rules by OUR will. I don't think you see it like that of course, and I do understand 100% why you think that. I believed the exact same thing about the exact same verses before. It makes sense when we think it's our wills running the show. It's not. Not even in our own lives. Like I said there is a LOT of scripture that contradict us being able to LOSE salvation, we have to find the truth by His Spirit leading us, it has to be somewhere in the middle in these cases. It says none of those the Father gives Him will He lose, it also tells us we need to follow and seek for Him, but does it say it's by our power we follow Him? Do we seek, or does He draw? Are we elect chosen from the foundations, or do we decide on the fly hour by hour, do we really have "free will", or are we slaves of either sin or Christ? Does He tell those who fell away, "You should have tried harder and not fallen away", or "I NEVER knew you and you were NEVER of us"?

You say I don't make sense, yet your God saves the wrong people who will end up rejecting Him later. Why? Maybe because not enough power to keep them I guess. You declare what these few scripture mean "fo show", yet I haven't once heard the way you balance them with the others that seemingly contradict what you believe. I have laid out why I believe what I do about the nature of what salvation is, and what being born again in Christ is.

I do understand your argument and understanding of the Hebrews 6 scripture, even though don't agree with your conclusion of what it mean. I don't really see any point of repeating ourselves at each other to the point we're just mindlessly bickering for no reason. I just want to end with a summery of what you're arguing for, from my point of view.

You are arguing for us to fear a God that we might walk away from, it's all up to that person. I do not understand how anyone that was spiritually reborn in truth, reconnected with His Spirit making them all new, making them whole as we were created to be, revealing Himself to them for really REAL, could/would ever decide, "Nahh, I'm going back to a deceptive lie".

This is impossible in my experience and by His word. It would honestly make Him a kind of weak and bumbling God in my opinion. I do not see how anyone that has seem the power of the King that saved me could ever turn away, or argue that anyone else could. That's just my take on it. Anyway I hope you have a great day regardless of this conversation, I like thinking on these things with other believers.

Believe what you like, but the scriptural language and logic is clear. Goodbye

 

[notmyown]

the biblical threats and warnings are real, just as the promises are real. they each serve a purpose in the life of the believer. they keep us from falling off the road, on the side of presumption or the side of despair.

a believer may read the warning in the beginning of Hebrews 4, and the Spirit may prompt a reminder where one thinks, oh, no, i have drifted a little from the Lord Jesus! then we are given the ability to rectify it.

what we ought not think is how cool we are, gettin' it done ourselves.

it's all of grace. all of God.

 

[mailmandan]

the biblical threats and warnings are real, just as the promises are real. they each serve a purpose in the life of the believer. they keep us from falling off the road, on the side of presumption or the side of despair.

a believer may read the warning in the beginning of Hebrews 4, and the Spirit may prompt a reminder where one thinks, oh, no, i have drifted a little from the Lord Jesus! then we are given the ability to rectify it.

what we ought not think is how cool we are, gettin' it done ourselves.

it's all of grace. all of God.

Hebrews 4:1,2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[notmyown]

Hebrews 4:1,2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

yep, agree with you on this one

 

[notmyown]

Hebrews 4:1,2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Dan, i'm so clumsy i don't think i made my point very well. God may use a warning passage to wake up a slumbering believer, but a believer cannot be 'lost'. Christ will make sure we all cross the finish line.

God may also use a warning passage to stir up the heart of a make-believer, as you so deftly put it.
i think there are folks who truly believe they're saved, and they need the most help of all.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan, i'm so clumsy i don't think i made my point very well. God may use a warning passage to wake up a slumbering believer, but a believer cannot be 'lost'. Christ will make sure we all cross the finish line.

God may also use a warning passage to stir up the heart of a make-believer, as you so deftly put it.
i think there are folks who truly believe they're saved, and they need the most help of all.

Sadly, most of "professing" Christiandom is made up of "nominal" Christians/make-believers. Hence the warnings.

Just look at all the false religions and cults out there (who promote works-righteousness/salvation by works) yet all claim to be Christian organizations.

Genuine believers who trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation are clearly in the minority.

 

[Jimbone]

Believe what you like, but the scriptural language and logic is clear. Goodbye

This we agree 100% on, I can hear the language and logic singing in these words.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:22
22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 John 5:10-13
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Hebrews 13:5
5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

John 6:40
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Hebrews 7:25
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast

 

[romans113336]

You dont understand Paul, those whom God saved, they are given a new heart, and they will never depart from God, thats a Promise of God Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Begging the question fallacy.

How did the Galatians depart from God?

 

[romans113336]

A Believer , or anyone Christ died for, can never be condemned by God. But now a saved persons conscience can condemn them for doing wrong, or for doing what they may see as wrong.

John wrote to believers 1 Jn 3:20


For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

But God doesnt never condemn them as far as their Salvation is concerned.

I provided the Scripture where it says the believer who sins IS condemned by God... you just don't accept Scripture. Why? Man made tradition.

As for whether it's "for salvation": Paul says the believer who walks after the flesh, not after the spirit, will die (Ro 8:12,13).

 

[brightfame52]

Begging the question fallacy.

How did the Galatians depart from God?

By not being saved in the first place. If one is saved, Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[brightfame52]

I provided the Scripture where it says the believer who sins IS condemned by God... you just don't accept Scripture. Why? Man made tradition.

As for whether it's "for salvation": Paul says the believer who walks after the flesh, not after the spirit, will die (Ro 8:12,13).

Aint nobody Christ died for ever condemned, He took care of that matter for them. Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[romans113336]

By not being saved in the first place. If one is saved, Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Galatians 3:1-3 says they were saved.

 

[romans113336]

Aint nobody Christ died for ever condemned, He took care of that matter for them. Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ro 14:23 says a believer who sins is condemned.