Works Complete Faith?

[cv5]

In that very same post you replied to, I told you: Hebrews 3.

Hebrews 3
12Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [e]that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Here buddy, let me give you a hint as to what is ACTUALLY going on in Hebrews:
Just to let you know, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding "losing your salvation"
anywhere anytime in Hebrews or any other place in Scripture. Despite your (cough cough) "beliefs".

Heb 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14
For here (in Jerusalem!) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

 

[romans113336]

Here buddy, let me give you a hint as to what is ACTUALLY going on in Hebrews:
Just to let you know, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding "losing your salvation"
anywhere anytime in Hebrews or any other place in Scripture. Despite your (cough cough) "beliefs".

Heb 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14
For here (in Jerusalem!) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Well, as far as what I said, the text of Heb 3 is plain to me, so we'll agree to disagree--as 1 Jn 3:23+, we only abide in Him if we keep His command to believe, and we only receive His Spirit if we abide in Him, and Heb 3 is warning against not abiding in Him on account of breaking that command.

As far as Hebrews 13, I was reading from Hebrews 3, so I don't know why you're raising Hebrews 13 to disprove what I read there.

 

[Cameron143]

Paul qualifies them as saved--comparing their salvation to his own salvation.

1 Corinthianis 9
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

I don't believe that is right either. I think the comparison is with Hebrews 6 where some were experiencing great things of God, but fell away . But my guess is you believe they were saved as well.
At any rate, I believe we understand salvation differently, so it is only natural we would understand the doctrines surrounding it differently.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[romans113336]

I don't believe that is right either.

You'll forgive me for taking God at His Word--Paul says he can fall under God's wrath despite being saved if he sins just as what happened to the Jews after their salvation. What happened to them was written for our instruction. It applies today. So "thinks" Paul at least.
If not, offer your "take" on what Paul said.
How do you interpret it?

I think the comparison is with Hebrews 6 where some were experiencing great things of God, but fell away . But my guess is you believe they were saved as well.
At any rate, I believe we understand salvation differently, so it is only natural we would understand the doctrines surrounding it differently.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Yep!

"My righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] draws back My soul has no pleasure in him... but we are not of those who draw back to destruction [like My righteous ones mentioned in Hebrews 6]..."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"Y'all" [!] (plural)

Not relevant--"if you continue in faith" is.

Bear in mind that the phrase "continue in THE faith" (used in Acts 14:22 and Col1:23--not in 1Cor15 we had been discussing), is speaking of "THE faith"--"that body of Truth" as found in the NT following His death and resurrection (necessarily INCLUDING the vital Truth OF His resurrection [FACT!])...

...so it's not really saying (like you are suggesting), "if you [individual] continue believing [i.e. personal 'faith']"...





--see here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...a=continue+in+the+faith&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

 

[romans113336]

Bear in mind that the phrase "continue in THE faith" (used in Acts 14:22 and Col1:23--not in 1Cor15 we had been discussing), is speaking of "THE faith"--"that body of Truth" as found in the NT following His death and resurrection (necessarily INCLUDING the vital Truth OF His resurrection [FACT!])...

...so it's not really saying (like you are suggesting), "if you [individual] continue believing [i.e. personal 'faith']"...

--see here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...a=continue+in+the+faith&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

Whoever the audience is--whether he is speaking to an individual or a group--they are "being saved" if they continue in faith although they were already "saved". "Already but not yet".

 

[romans113336]

Where does it say unbelief is caused by sin?

In that very same post you replied to, I told you: Hebrews 3.

Hebrews 3
12Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [e]that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

It doesn't say "so that none of you were hardened by the deceitfulness of sin so that you never believed truth", but "so that none of you WILL BE HARDENED by the deceitfulness of sin"--and we know that "hardness of heart" is synonymous with "unbelief" (eg, parable of the sower, etc), which, the text says, leads one to "fall away from the Living God".

The only reason not to read it this way is eisegesis due to a prior commitment to an idea which the text threatens (ie, OSAS).

 

[Mem]

I don't believe works constitute faith.
You're misrepresenting my view.

Would you agree that if you take two people that display the same works, the one with faith is saved and the one without is lost?
And if you take two people that have the same faith, one with works and one without, the one is saved and the other is lost?

 

[romans113336]

Would you agree that if you take two people that display the same works, the one with faith is saved and the one without is lost?
And if you take two people that have the same faith, one with works and one without, the one is saved and the other is lost?

A lost person can't do the works a Christian can do--by not believing, they are blaspheming God, not loving 1. God, the greatest commandment.
2. No, a person can be saved by grace through faith, and yet not walk as what he truly is spiritually--eg, "purge out the old leaven, as you are unleavened".

 

[Mem]

A lost person can't do the works a Christian can do--by not believing, they are blaspheming God, not loving 1. God, the greatest commandment.
2. No, a person can be saved by grace through faith, and yet not walk as what he truly is spiritually--eg, "purge out the old leaven, as you are unleavened".

to be clear then, the answer to 1. is 'yes' you agree (given the reason) and the answer to 2. is 'no' you disagree, and offer the reason that neither is lost? and the only difference is their walk? or?

 

[romans113336]

to be clear then, the answer to 1. is 'yes' you agree (given the reason) and the answer to 2. is 'no' you disagree, and offer the reason that neither is lost? and the only difference is their walk? or?

I don't know why, but you are coming across as confusing.

You don't determine whether someone is saved based solely on their works.

 

[Mem]

I don't know why, but you are coming across as confusing.

You don't determine whether someone is saved based solely on their works.

I was just trying to get a more accurate representation since you stated that I had misrepresented you. thank you for enduring with me as long as you have.

 

[romans113336]

I was just trying to get a more accurate representation since you stated that I had misrepresented you. thank you for enduring with me as long as you have.

OK Has it become sufficiently clear to you?

 

[Mem]

OK Has it become sufficiently clear to you?

admittedly, not quite yet, but it will suffice for the time being at any rate, thanks again.

 

[romans113336]

admittedly, not quite yet, but it will suffice for the time being at any rate, thanks again.

Put it this way: if someone who professes faith isn't living as a Christian should, they may or may not be saved. More information would be needed to better ascertain that--and, either way, they should be told to repent, to turn back to God.

If someone is showing their faith by their works, and is professing faith, then you can be fairly certain, until evidence to the contrary appears, that the person is saved.

Isn't that reasonable? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mem]

Put it this way: if someone who professes faith isn't living as a Christian should, they may or may not be saved. More information would be needed to better ascertain that--and, either way, they should be told to repent, to turn back to God.

If someone is showing their faith by their works, and is professing faith, then you can be fairly certain, until evidence to the contrary appears, that the person is saved.

Isn't that reasonable? Correct me if I'm wrong.

the reference to purging out the old leaven from the unleavened as applying to the 'unsaved' and the saved, respectively, is what is throwing me off, I think (not being sure if you see it as applying to the 'maybe yes maybe no saved and the saved?_, since the context is within the directive to "Expel the wicked from among you."

 

[Mem]

Paul writes, "But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

and closes by referencing those, who claims to be a brother but..., as being "evil."

 

[romans113336]

the reference to purging out the old leaven from the unleavened as applying to the 'unsaved' and the saved, respectively, is what is throwing me off, I think (not being sure if you see it as applying to the 'maybe yes maybe no saved and the saved?_, since the context is within the directive to "Expel the wicked from among you."

No, he is saying that the church is sinning, and is boasting about sinning, and to begin walking as what they truly are. They must get rid of the sin in their own lives.

One of the commands in relation to the Passover, is to get rid of leaven.
Leaven puffs things up--they were, over and over, rebuked for their boasting.
He even asks, sarcastically, "Shall I praise you [for your sin]!?"

 

[romans113336]

Paul writes, "But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

and closes by referencing those, who claims to be a brother but..., as being "evil."

Yeah, but the entire letter long, he is rebuking them for boasting.
The man in 1 Co 5 isn't the only guy sinning.
Remember he says "old leaven".
"Put off the old man" and "put on Christ".
Also, it is a sin even to "heartily approve" of sin (Ro 1).
So even their boasting about the sinning man was itself their own sin.
Leaven (sin), even though they were really unleavened (saints).

 

[romans113336]

Paul writes, "But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

and closes by referencing those, who claims to be a brother but..., as being "evil."

No, he is saying that the church is sinning, and is boasting about sinning, and to begin walking as what they truly are. They must get rid of the sin in their own lives.

One of the commands in relation to the Passover, is to get rid of leaven.
Leaven puffs things up--they were, over and over, rebuked for their boasting.
He even asks, sarcastically, "Shall I praise you [for your sin]!?"

Yeah, but the entire letter long, he is rebuking them for boasting.
The man in 1 Co 5 isn't the only guy sinning.
Remember he says "old leaven".
"Put off the old man" and "put on Christ".
Also, it is a sin even to "heartily approve" of sin (Ro 1).
So even their boasting about the sinning man was itself their own sin.
Leaven (sin), even though they were really unleavened (saints).

1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly--as to infants in Christ.

And you're saying they were not sinning? It was just the one guy?
Why hadn't they made spiritual progress then?

Elsewhere, the same is said to another group:

Hebrews 5
11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

So, we know that the Corinthians had not matured, nor grown in discernment, which only happens through constant practice--we have Paul saying they were carnal, unspiritual, boastful, were not fit for hearing spiritual wisdom, but milk, and so is it a surprise if we find they had not been training their powers of discernment through constant practice? Clearly, they weren't living as they ought to have--clearly, they had to purge the leaven out of their lives.