Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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If it was written to Christians as you said which was my point why does it have to mention "those who were saved" as you stated above in the opening of your reply? If they, the Hebrews, were Christians, they were saved! I'm not following you at all and you're not making sense. If they were saved, and they were, the warning was to them which infers that there was a danger of them falling away, renouncing Christ and returning to their old religious beliefs, and thus losing their salvation.
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That doesnt change a thing, Jer 32:40
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Also God will not turn away from them, to do them Good ! Thats Security
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Also God will not turn away from them, to do them Good ! Thats Security
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How did the Galatians desert God if your personal interpretation of that statement is true?
Galatians 1
6"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel."
Also, every sin people commit is idolatry, and idolatry pulls people away from abiding Christ (1 John 2:28, 5:21)--the only way for your interpretation to be true is to have Christians never sinning, which is not a valid view to hold.
Your interpretation is not valid.
Galatians 1
6"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel."
Also, every sin people commit is idolatry, and idolatry pulls people away from abiding Christ (1 John 2:28, 5:21)--the only way for your interpretation to be true is to have Christians never sinning, which is not a valid view to hold.
Your interpretation is not valid.
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I think it's great when you post scripture. I won't take an argument seriously if it's not backed with scripture. It also would be nice if you would explain your point.
When I read that scripture, I understand God is looking forward to His people, the body of Christ. The body will never leave God but individual members can and will.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
When I read that scripture, I understand God is looking forward to His people, the body of Christ. The body will never leave God but individual members can and will.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
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Hello! That was a different covenant. The Mosaic Covenant depended upon keeping the Law, a Covenant made between God and man that could be broken by human action. The New Covenant rests on what Jesus has already done for us, the finished work of Christ, a covenant made between God the Father and God the Son. We didn't make it, we can't break it. Jesus took the punishment for our sins:
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
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Hello! That was a different covenant. The Mosaic Covenant depended upon keeping the Law, a Covenant made between God and man that could be broken by human action. The New Covenant rests on what Jesus has already done for us, the finished work of Christ, a covenant made between God the Father and God the Son. We didn't make it, we can't break it. Jesus took the punishment for our sins:
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
1 Corinthians 9
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Mine says "the righteousness of the saints". That's different. The righteousness of the saints is Christ's righteousness, reckoned unto those whom He has chosen to salvation, and which is manifested through His faith.
Christ's faith was/is imputed to those whom He saves. As a part of His faith also are His righteousness and His works, and therefore, after being imputed to them, from God's viewpoint, it as through Christ's faith, righteousness and works are theirs.
[Rev 19:8 KJV] 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
To sin regarding eternal judgement is to be under the law of sin and death - or said another way, the law of works. It is at the same time both law AND sin. This should not be confused with God's law or the moral dictates that He gave to man.
The law of sin and death manifests itself in our trust in our works for justification and not in Christ as Saviour. We are born under it, and just by being under it, we sin - it is within the heart of natural man and until saved by Christ, we remain under its power.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
But to believe on the Name of God's Son requires the gift of faith resulting from salvation through the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Man is unable to provide this to himself. To love one another likewise is a gift through the Holy Spirit.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Sin is to trust in our works for salvation and not in Christ as Saviour. Trust in Christ occurs only if God is working within someone to will and to do of His good pleasure, because natural man simply cannot do so of himself. All Christians, especially those who are new to, or unlearned in the doctrines of Christ and faith, require spiritual instruction, admonition, and exhortations - that is how they/we learn. Nevertheless, God must be working within them to bring the increase forth to fruition. Below we are informed that God used Paul and Apollos for such, but, it was God alone who brought the increase forth. And if He does, it cannot be reversed.
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
[1Co 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Christ's faith was/is imputed to those whom He saves. As a part of His faith also are His righteousness and His works, and therefore, after being imputed to them, from God's viewpoint, it as through Christ's faith, righteousness and works are theirs.
[Rev 19:8 KJV] 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
To sin regarding eternal judgement is to be under the law of sin and death - or said another way, the law of works. It is at the same time both law AND sin. This should not be confused with God's law or the moral dictates that He gave to man.
The law of sin and death manifests itself in our trust in our works for justification and not in Christ as Saviour. We are born under it, and just by being under it, we sin - it is within the heart of natural man and until saved by Christ, we remain under its power.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
But to believe on the Name of God's Son requires the gift of faith resulting from salvation through the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Man is unable to provide this to himself. To love one another likewise is a gift through the Holy Spirit.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Sin is to trust in our works for salvation and not in Christ as Saviour. Trust in Christ occurs only if God is working within someone to will and to do of His good pleasure, because natural man simply cannot do so of himself. All Christians, especially those who are new to, or unlearned in the doctrines of Christ and faith, require spiritual instruction, admonition, and exhortations - that is how they/we learn. Nevertheless, God must be working within them to bring the increase forth to fruition. Below we are informed that God used Paul and Apollos for such, but, it was God alone who brought the increase forth. And if He does, it cannot be reversed.
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
[1Co 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
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Hello! That was a different covenant. The Mosaic Covenant depended upon keeping the Law, a Covenant made between God and man that could be broken by human action. The New Covenant rests on what Jesus has already done for us, the finished work of Christ, a covenant made between God the Father and God the Son. We didn't make it, we can't break it. Jesus took the punishment for our sins:
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).
God Bless You
This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
We still sin but now we have a perfect sacrifice. If we confess He is faithful to forgive us.
When we're judged, God is not going to say to us, "I remember your righteous deed of going to the Temple, when you were 12, and confronting the leaders with questions they had no answers to."
His righteousness is His.
The fact that we believe (by God's grace, of course) is our righteousness ("God Is Our Righteousness")--accordingly, unbelief is "calling God liar".
Faith is what God wants from us. It is a Law. The Law of Faith.
When we obey that Law of Faith, we are doing the thing God wants.
That is why it is righteousness.
Also, it consists in us being forgiven (Ro 4:6-8).
Nope, that Greek word also means "faithfulness", so it refers to us being saved by Christ's "faithfulness", not His "faith".
Even granting all of your bad translations, you can lose those garments (Rv 16:15).
"Sin" is presented as a "ruler" opposed to God.
Sin issues decrees, its "law", in the flesh.
Our salvation from that estate of spiritual slavery is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--still, as Paul says, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after having been saved, and the same can happen to us (1 Co 9:27-1 Co 10) if we sin by breaking the twofold command (1 Jn 3:23).
Again, this is not "faith" but "faithfulness".
This is a mangling of the doctrines on account of your incorrect translation of the Greek word as "faith" instead of "faithfulness". Of course, it makes no sense.
His righteousness is His.
The fact that we believe (by God's grace, of course) is our righteousness ("God Is Our Righteousness")--accordingly, unbelief is "calling God liar".
Faith is what God wants from us. It is a Law. The Law of Faith.
When we obey that Law of Faith, we are doing the thing God wants.
That is why it is righteousness.
Also, it consists in us being forgiven (Ro 4:6-8).
Nope, that Greek word also means "faithfulness", so it refers to us being saved by Christ's "faithfulness", not His "faith".
Even granting all of your bad translations, you can lose those garments (Rv 16:15).
"Sin" is presented as a "ruler" opposed to God.
Sin issues decrees, its "law", in the flesh.
Our salvation from that estate of spiritual slavery is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--still, as Paul says, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after having been saved, and the same can happen to us (1 Co 9:27-1 Co 10) if we sin by breaking the twofold command (1 Jn 3:23).
Again, this is not "faith" but "faithfulness".
This is a mangling of the doctrines on account of your incorrect translation of the Greek word as "faith" instead of "faithfulness". Of course, it makes no sense.
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Hello turbo. Thanks for your reply. That's a great passage:
Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
Another difference I would suggest is that believers keep the Law of Christ because of what he has already done for us. Our obedience is relational, not transactional. Because we have been saved and redeemed we obey the Lord, we love because he first loved us. We forgive one another because God has forgiven our sins in Christ. We're not trying to earn our salvation or keep our salvation, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. God Bless You
Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
Another difference I would suggest is that believers keep the Law of Christ because of what he has already done for us. Our obedience is relational, not transactional. Because we have been saved and redeemed we obey the Lord, we love because he first loved us. We forgive one another because God has forgiven our sins in Christ. We're not trying to earn our salvation or keep our salvation, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. God Bless You
Not exactly sure what you're asking? A church isn't a building - its essence is found in its leadership and the doctrines they espouse and follow. We know God's spiritual church - the church of the firstborn- can't be the one in view because their garments were given to them though Christ and His righteousness, and therefore, are clean and cannot become soiled.
[Heb 12:23 KJV] 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Everyone is born is born with a soiled garment. The soil of the garment represents one's sins. Those saved have been given new, clean garments by Christ, which, through Him (not by us), have no sin.
Yes, but it being a corporate church run by men, it (and they) wandered from the truth of Christ. This is no different than the
the churches of today or even of Old Testament Israel. They were warned but ignored it so their place as a candlestick was removed.
I disagree. All have strayed. True repentance is only given to someone as a gift by God but is not given to everyone. Its presence is manifested in the acknowledging of Christ as Saviour and in departing from our works (in any form), for self-justification before God.
No man can of himself repent because by trying to do so, they demonstrate they haven't done so.
[Isa 53:6 KJV]
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 12:23 KJV] 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Everyone is born is born with a soiled garment. The soil of the garment represents one's sins. Those saved have been given new, clean garments by Christ, which, through Him (not by us), have no sin.
Yes, but it being a corporate church run by men, it (and they) wandered from the truth of Christ. This is no different than the
the churches of today or even of Old Testament Israel. They were warned but ignored it so their place as a candlestick was removed.
I disagree. All have strayed. True repentance is only given to someone as a gift by God but is not given to everyone. Its presence is manifested in the acknowledging of Christ as Saviour and in departing from our works (in any form), for self-justification before God.
No man can of himself repent because by trying to do so, they demonstrate they haven't done so.
[Isa 53:6 KJV]
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
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Hello turbo. Thanks for your reply. That's a great passage:
Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
Another difference I would suggest is that believers keep the Law of Christ because of what he has already done for us. Our obedience is relational, not transactional. Because we have been saved and redeemed we obey the Lord, we love because he first loved us. We forgive one another because God has forgiven our sins in Christ. We're not trying to earn our salvation or keep our salvation, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. God Bless You
Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
Another difference I would suggest is that believers keep the Law of Christ because of what he has already done for us. Our obedience is relational, not transactional. Because we have been saved and redeemed we obey the Lord, we love because he first loved us. We forgive one another because God has forgiven our sins in Christ. We're not trying to earn our salvation or keep our salvation, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. God Bless You
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If anyone departs from God, they were never saved, they were false brothern. Those who are saved have a New Heart and will never depart from God, and God will never stop doing them Good Jer 32:40
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Plus they have no sin sin imputed to them Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Plus they have no sin sin imputed to them Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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I completely disagree with your conclusions, and just because you've come up with them, doesn't make them correct, nor are you the authority. Remember, I am replying to questions that you've asked me, not that I've asked you, so since you are bent on being rude, I think we're done. I will leave you with one tip though- if you claim to be a Christian, you really should learn that Christ, not man, is the Saviour. Until you do, none of your conclusions will be biblically trustworthy.
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1. I didn't mean to be rude.
2. Yup, God is the Savior--never denied that. You seem to not understand what that entails. For instance, in Judges 7, God says He won't save Israel until they whittle their numbers down from 30,000 to 300, getting rid of the fearful men, or else they will say they did it instead of giving God the glory. So, after they are whittled down to 300, God gives commands, and the 300 men obey God, and that, God says, is "God getting all the glory as Savior". God doesn't erase us from the picture to get the glory--your issue is you don't know Biblical precedent for God getting all the glory, so you subscribe to Monergism as a false way to give God all the glory. You aren't very well acquainted with Scripture. Simple.
3. I know you disagree with me--and here you have proven you have no bases, except your preconceptions, your man made traditions, for it.
Thanks for the interactions.
2. Yup, God is the Savior--never denied that. You seem to not understand what that entails. For instance, in Judges 7, God says He won't save Israel until they whittle their numbers down from 30,000 to 300, getting rid of the fearful men, or else they will say they did it instead of giving God the glory. So, after they are whittled down to 300, God gives commands, and the 300 men obey God, and that, God says, is "God getting all the glory as Savior". God doesn't erase us from the picture to get the glory--your issue is you don't know Biblical precedent for God getting all the glory, so you subscribe to Monergism as a false way to give God all the glory. You aren't very well acquainted with Scripture. Simple.
3. I know you disagree with me--and here you have proven you have no bases, except your preconceptions, your man made traditions, for it.
Thanks for the interactions.
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