Works Complete Faith?
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romans113336 said:
Which "All"? Both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "works" it refers to must be works of Law. I'm not saying anything to the contrary.
Your pointless inchoate rambling bafflegab is a testament to your addled mind and tormented spirit.
Which "All"? Both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "works" it refers to must be works of Law. I'm not saying anything to the contrary.
Your pointless inchoate rambling bafflegab is a testament to your addled mind and tormented spirit.
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And there we have it. You admission that you believe that salvation is necessarily complemented by OUR WORKS and/or efforts, being otherwise deficient.
You believe that the fullness of the divinely perfect completed work of Jesus Christ ALONE is insufficient and therefore ineffective.
You believe that the fullness of the divinely perfect completed work of Jesus Christ ALONE is insufficient and therefore ineffective.
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Lol What do you mean "and there we have it"? The name of the thread is "works complete faith?" and I've been saying so for many days already.
You're free to respond to any argument I've made to prove my point, but to sit here and emptily proclaim "AHA!" does nothing.
For instance, 1 John 3:23 says "believe in the Name of God's Son AND love one another"--if we keep those commands we abide in Him and He supplies us with His Spirit/eternal life. Pretty straightforward. Doesn't say "faith alone".
How was all of this "hidden" to you?
You're free to respond to any argument I've made to prove my point, but to sit here and emptily proclaim "AHA!" does nothing.
For instance, 1 John 3:23 says "believe in the Name of God's Son AND love one another"--if we keep those commands we abide in Him and He supplies us with His Spirit/eternal life. Pretty straightforward. Doesn't say "faith alone".
How was all of this "hidden" to you?
To the twelve tribes scattered abroad...the twelve tribes is Israel as a nation.
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Justified, made right before God.
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? His faith was made complete, perfect.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. In Genesis 15, Abraham believed God. Abraham's belief was not fulfilled until Genesis 22 when he offered up Isaac. Abraham's faith was then made perfect in Genesis 22.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. OT justification came by faith and works. But the best that could do is to justify them not receiving God's wrath in hell, but to sleep in Abraham's bosom. The faith of Christ was not yet available until after the cross. The faith of Christ is God's righteousness. Big difference.
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Justified, made right before God.
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? His faith was made complete, perfect.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. In Genesis 15, Abraham believed God. Abraham's belief was not fulfilled until Genesis 22 when he offered up Isaac. Abraham's faith was then made perfect in Genesis 22.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. OT justification came by faith and works. But the best that could do is to justify them not receiving God's wrath in hell, but to sleep in Abraham's bosom. The faith of Christ was not yet available until after the cross. The faith of Christ is God's righteousness. Big difference.
There are doubtless millions of saved Christians (and OT saints like the thief on the cross) who had ZERO merits/work/fruit in terms of "loving one another". Or any other merits/works/fruit or anything else of their own devices.
All by God's glorious gracious design. If you did not know.
All by God's glorious gracious design. If you did not know.
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Actually, since "God is at work in you to will and do for His pleasure", when we "obey" (Php 2:12,13), the works aren't ours but God's--eg, "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but the grace with me".
When we "walk by faith", it's by God's grace, and He alone gets glory--as when Gideon and his men obeyed God and God alone got the glory.
When we "walk by faith", it's by God's grace, and He alone gets glory--as when Gideon and his men obeyed God and God alone got the glory.
Where it is written, "Some will say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works." This seems to be answering in a way that is saying, "It is possible that you have works without faith, since you cannot 'show me your faith,' but it's impossible to 'show' my faith without works, since, again, it's not possible to 'show' faith, except by works....
Let establish the exact claim of the OP, here. Is the argument that one "must have works to show faith, and so then the lack of works shows a lack of faith" with the understanding that faith cannot be 'shown' at all apart from works, and that, even if it is invisibly present, it cannot save unless there is work to show it.
If indeed this is the argument, what then do we do with the reality that there are actually works without faith present.
I'm sure it is unanimously agreed upon that works without faith is insufficient to save, as works do not produce faith since faith must come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That is faith is not inherent to works.
Now then, if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God then faith does, as is inherent to faith, produce works.
So, the question posed that, "if a person says I have faith but has not works, can that faith save him?" seems to be a rhetorical question calling the claimant a liar, since faith, hearing the word, produces the work of a 'new man.'
Let establish the exact claim of the OP, here. Is the argument that one "must have works to show faith, and so then the lack of works shows a lack of faith" with the understanding that faith cannot be 'shown' at all apart from works, and that, even if it is invisibly present, it cannot save unless there is work to show it.
If indeed this is the argument, what then do we do with the reality that there are actually works without faith present.
I'm sure it is unanimously agreed upon that works without faith is insufficient to save, as works do not produce faith since faith must come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That is faith is not inherent to works.
Now then, if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God then faith does, as is inherent to faith, produce works.
So, the question posed that, "if a person says I have faith but has not works, can that faith save him?" seems to be a rhetorical question calling the claimant a liar, since faith, hearing the word, produces the work of a 'new man.'
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