Works Complete Faith?
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Fine... let's take a look at the middle one first (I can only cover so much in one post, lol)...
Do you really mean to say, that this phrase (I've bolded ^ ) could legitimately be read, "I am [first-person pronoun] being saved" (in your view)?
Let's take a look at where the wording "being saved" is used...
... I selected this version [/translation] to post only because it had the MOST "being saved" verses of the translations (but I placed a "X" beside the ones that don't actually have it worded this way in the Greek):
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
X 2Cor 2:16 - [this translation (NLT) inserts words to clarify how it connects back with the previous verse ^ , but which words are not actually in the text in this verse... The idea, however, continues into this next verse...]
To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?
[and a cpl more SIMILAR ones from this same translation / version...]
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved [present participle].
X Luk 8:12 -
The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved [this word is not in "participle" form (so, not "being," but rather "be saved"--so this verse doesn't count, even though the NLT makes it seem like it might be the same as the above)].
_____
Now, let's look at the first one again:
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
"we who are being saved [present participle]... [it was Billy and Bobby last week... it was Susie and Sally the week before that... it was Harold and Fred and Gloria the week prior to that week... and it was Merlin and Mabel and their kids the week before that!]"<-- that's who this reference is saying are "BEING saved".
It is not saying, "I am in the process of being saved [and at some point I can thwart it or chuck it]"
(Can you perhaps provide a reference that you believe IS SAYING such [re: the "being saved" idea you are presenting in this thread]??)
This becomes even more clear in the Acts reference:
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved [present participle]. [i.e. Billy and Bobby one day... Susie and Sally on another day... Harold and Fred and Gloria on another day... Merlin and Mabel and their kids on another day... and so forth... AS those who were "being saved"]
As I see it, you are misunderstanding the "being saved" references (as evidenced in this OP thread topic and discussion), unless you think I am mis-reading you (I don't think so... I've had this discussion many times with other posters in the past, on different discussion boards, through many years... who were making that same point, on this [and on this phrase]).
Do you really mean to say, that this phrase (I've bolded ^ ) could legitimately be read, "I am [first-person pronoun] being saved" (in your view)?
Let's take a look at where the wording "being saved" is used...
... I selected this version [/translation] to post only because it had the MOST "being saved" verses of the translations (but I placed a "X" beside the ones that don't actually have it worded this way in the Greek):
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
X 2Cor 2:16 - [this translation (NLT) inserts words to clarify how it connects back with the previous verse ^ , but which words are not actually in the text in this verse... The idea, however, continues into this next verse...]
To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?
[and a cpl more SIMILAR ones from this same translation / version...]
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved [present participle].
X Luk 8:12 -
The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved [this word is not in "participle" form (so, not "being," but rather "be saved"--so this verse doesn't count, even though the NLT makes it seem like it might be the same as the above)].
_____
Now, let's look at the first one again:
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
"we who are being saved [present participle]... [it was Billy and Bobby last week... it was Susie and Sally the week before that... it was Harold and Fred and Gloria the week prior to that week... and it was Merlin and Mabel and their kids the week before that!]"<-- that's who this reference is saying are "BEING saved".
It is not saying, "I am in the process of being saved [and at some point I can thwart it or chuck it]"
(Can you perhaps provide a reference that you believe IS SAYING such [re: the "being saved" idea you are presenting in this thread]??)
This becomes even more clear in the Acts reference:
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved [present participle]. [i.e. Billy and Bobby one day... Susie and Sally on another day... Harold and Fred and Gloria on another day... Merlin and Mabel and their kids on another day... and so forth... AS those who were "being saved"]
As I see it, you are misunderstanding the "being saved" references (as evidenced in this OP thread topic and discussion), unless you think I am mis-reading you (I don't think so... I've had this discussion many times with other posters in the past, on different discussion boards, through many years... who were making that same point, on this [and on this phrase]).
"Christ in you" IS the test.
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea!
])
____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea!
])____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
1. I've heard this argument before.
2. Not a problem: we were saved (you already agree), but we also will be saved (eg, a man is handed to satan so that he may realize the seriousness of his sin and finally repent so that at least his spirit will be saved on "The Day of the Lord"), and, so, I see no rationalization for disputing that, in the meantime, we are being saved.
Yes, God saved us, He will save us, and, in the meantime, we are being saved.
Even if it were granted that some of the references meant "there is a salvation currently going on--and when individuals are saved, they are being saved", it would not of necessity be mutually exclusive with the notion that those who will be saved and were saved could also be being saved, or else, again, you should find fault with, based on this typical "mutually exclusivist" view (this is also erroneously done with judgment and adjudication of justification), a future salvation which is not ambiguous.
2. Not a problem: we were saved (you already agree), but we also will be saved (eg, a man is handed to satan so that he may realize the seriousness of his sin and finally repent so that at least his spirit will be saved on "The Day of the Lord"), and, so, I see no rationalization for disputing that, in the meantime, we are being saved.
Yes, God saved us, He will save us, and, in the meantime, we are being saved.
Even if it were granted that some of the references meant "there is a salvation currently going on--and when individuals are saved, they are being saved", it would not of necessity be mutually exclusive with the notion that those who will be saved and were saved could also be being saved, or else, again, you should find fault with, based on this typical "mutually exclusivist" view (this is also erroneously done with judgment and adjudication of justification), a future salvation which is not ambiguous.
"Christ in you" IS the test.
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea! ])
____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea!
])____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
This is as he says to the Galatians: "you are cut off from Christ".
Why? They were "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ and are going after another Gospel"--they had been bamboozled, deceived, had come under the persuasion of a demon (doctrines of demons) (Gal 5).
1 John 3 says we know we abide in Him by the Spirit He gives us.
And we abide in Him by keeping His commands.
Also, we fail to abide by breaking His commands.
The Galatians received the Spirit upon hearing with faith (Gal 3).
They were keeping the command "believe on the Name of God's Son".
So, if someone veers from this, then they are not abiding in Christ, and Christ is not providing them with His Spirit.
"Christ in you" IS the test.
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea! ])
____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
Paul knows their response is "YES [Christ is in us]"... which IS HIS ARGUMENT (vindicating his apostleship).
He is saying "test YOURSELF" [not ME!], coz YOU ARE THE PROOF!
... and when he goes on to say, "unless INDEED you fail the test," he is saying, "unless you're gonna say, 'NO Christ is NOT in us!'" which he knows THEY WON'T BE SAYING
(...thus PROVING his point--that he IS an "apostle"! [to ppl who weren't too keen on that idea!
])____________
(I think I recall a Phil verse you made a post about that I was going to comment on... so now I'll try to go search for that one, to address...)
Why no more answers regarding my reading of Romans 7?
And I've left [member] presidente, who'd asked me a specific question, HANGING (in another thread)... to come over here to this thread and try to at least touch on a few small points (I'm NOT going to be able to touch on ALL OF THEM that I'd LIKE to!)
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You have an issue, because, for you, if we were already saved, we can't be said to be being saved.
I get it.
As I said, the two are not mutually exclusive--any more than "justified" in the past-tense is mutually exclusive with a future justification, which is explicit, and an ongoing justification, which is also explicit (eg, when the Christians is "condemned" for "sin" Ro 14:23, which God also can forgive if it is acknowledged--otherwise, to get your attention, and make you repent, you may end up sick, and, eventually, dead, like the Corinthians who offended the Lord in 1 Corinthians 11).
This just isn't an issue for me, since Scripture teaches all of the above, I am believing all of the above. I don't argue, "How can you say I will be justified on some day in the future? I'm ALREADY justified." I simply accept the teachings, and pray about how they can all be true. I accept.
Not difficult.
So, also, I was saved, I will be saved, and, in the meantime, I am being saved. I believe it all. Why leave any of it out?
I get it.
As I said, the two are not mutually exclusive--any more than "justified" in the past-tense is mutually exclusive with a future justification, which is explicit, and an ongoing justification, which is also explicit (eg, when the Christians is "condemned" for "sin" Ro 14:23, which God also can forgive if it is acknowledged--otherwise, to get your attention, and make you repent, you may end up sick, and, eventually, dead, like the Corinthians who offended the Lord in 1 Corinthians 11).
This just isn't an issue for me, since Scripture teaches all of the above, I am believing all of the above. I don't argue, "How can you say I will be justified on some day in the future? I'm ALREADY justified." I simply accept the teachings, and pray about how they can all be true. I accept.
Not difficult.
So, also, I was saved, I will be saved, and, in the meantime, I am being saved. I believe it all. Why leave any of it out?
This is why Paul warns those who would disregard the prohibition against immorality,
1 Thessalonians 4
8“Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.”
Those who obey His commands abide in Him; those who do not, He withdraws His Spirit--as in Ezekiel, and as it happened to Samson, the Spirit departed.
1 Thessalonians 4
8“Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.”
Those who obey His commands abide in Him; those who do not, He withdraws His Spirit--as in Ezekiel, and as it happened to Samson, the Spirit departed.
^ It's not rocket science to observe, in the texts themselves...
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we [or, to us - PLURAL] who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who [PLURAL] are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who [PLURAL] were being saved [present participle].
... talking about lotsa ppl being saved [i.e. coming to Christ for salvation]...
(in today's parlance, "lotsa ppl gettin' saved... all the time"... Not speaking of an individual in these contexts [as though saying "I am [singular] being saved". No... NOT THE CONTEXT!! AND... NOT WHAT THE WORDING (nor the grammar) ITSELF CONVEYS! ])
What I am hearing from you is only so much human reasoning...
(but... follow the "Greek Orthodox Church" if you want to... I'm not gonna... I'll stick with what the text itself states )
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we [or, to us - PLURAL] who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who [PLURAL] are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who [PLURAL] were being saved [present participle].
... talking about lotsa ppl being saved [i.e. coming to Christ for salvation]...
(in today's parlance, "lotsa ppl gettin' saved... all the time"... Not speaking of an individual in these contexts [as though saying "I am [singular] being saved". No... NOT THE CONTEXT!! AND... NOT WHAT THE WORDING (nor the grammar) ITSELF CONVEYS!
])What I am hearing from you is only so much human reasoning...
(but... follow the "Greek Orthodox Church" if you want to... I'm not gonna... I'll stick with what the text itself states
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^ It's not rocket science to observe, in the texts themselves...
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we [or, to us - PLURAL] who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who [PLURAL] are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who [PLURAL] were being saved [present participle].
... talking about lotsa ppl being saved [i.e. coming to Christ for salvation]...
(in today's parlance, "lotsa ppl gettin' saved... all the time"... Not speaking of an individual in these contexts [as though saying "I am [singular] being saved". No... NOT THE CONTEXT!! AND... NOT WHAT THE WORDING (nor the grammar) ITSELF CONVEYS! ])
What I am hearing from you is only so much human reasoning...
1Cor 1:18 -
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction [are perishing--present participle]! But we [or, to us - PLURAL] who are being saved [present participle] know it is the very power of God.
2Cor 2:15 -
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who [PLURAL] are being saved [present participle] and by those who are perishing.
Act 2:47 -
all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who [PLURAL] were being saved [present participle].
... talking about lotsa ppl being saved [i.e. coming to Christ for salvation]...
(in today's parlance, "lotsa ppl gettin' saved... all the time"... Not speaking of an individual in these contexts [as though saying "I am [singular] being saved". No... NOT THE CONTEXT!! AND... NOT WHAT THE WORDING (nor the grammar) ITSELF CONVEYS!
])What I am hearing from you is only so much human reasoning...
2and by which [Gospel] you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Again, though, I don't need a Greek lesson--the Greek Orthodox Church believes as I do.
^ 1Cor15:2 has 4 "YOU [PLURALs]" in it... so same goes!
["y'all"... ya know!?]
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-2.htm
["y'all"... ya know!?]
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-2.htm
You just shot yourself in the foot: if we read "being saved" not as "those who are in the process of being saved", but as "some individuals became saved today, because God is doing a salvific work", then we would also have to read "perishing" in the same way... but "those who have perished today" are not experiencing or discerning the lives of Christians! They already died! It is obviously referring to those who are not believing, and who are, consequently, on their way to destruction, and who are, in the meantime, categorized and described as "perishing". We see someone drowning, and, without intervention, we know that they will perish, and, so, they are perishing.
They already died! It is obviously referring to those who are not believing, and who are, consequently, on their way to destruction, and who are, in the meantime, categorized and described as "perishing". We see someone drowning, and, without intervention, we know that they will perish, and, so, they are perishing.- Status