Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

Well then, by your measure, that "mean" red-X could be a potentially fatal sin that leads to condemnation.
The works righteousness jive talk is much more dire though.

Sin is deadly. Is that controversial?
If a Christian lives in sin, they will fall under God's wrath.
Conversely, if they walk in faith (fully convinced about the rightness of his deeds Ro 14:5) his justification is retained.

 

[Cameron143]

Why does Jude say "twice dead"?


Oops, Paul is teaching Christians about the rules of living before God, so that's not a possible true interpretation.


You need to know our salvation is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--and just as they sinned and fell under wrath, the same can happen to us. You can read 1 Co 10 for more info.

Dead to the law. Dead to sin.

 

[cv5]

Sin is deadly. Is that controversial?
If a Christian lives in sin, they will fall under God's wrath.
Conversely, if they walk in faith (fully convinced about the rightness of his deeds Ro 14:5) his justification is retained.

 

[romans113336]

1Co 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Let that sink in.

We agree: if he is delivered to satan for destroying his body, he "MIGHT" (the text says) repent, and his repentance, once he sees how serious his error (Ro 1) / sin was, will result in the salvation of at least his spirit when he is judged.

And no, Hebrews 6 and 10 have nothing whatsoever to do with "losing your salvation". This is "impossible".

Why does it say "If My righteous one draws back My soul has no pleasure in him... to destruction" then?
Where else do we see this "drawing back"? 1 Jn 2 "abide in Him so that when he appears you will not draw back in shame".
Shame indicates death not eternal life (Dn 12:2).

 

[romans113336]

Dead to the law. Dead to sin.

Jude uses the phrase "twice dead" as a condemnation not a commendation

 

[romans113336]

Which of the things that was said was not Biblically sound?

 

[romans113336]

There is n

You probably ought to know the new covenant is by grace and not by performance or law.

Who said we were "under Law"?
I never did.
But being "under Grace" pertains to good works being done.

 

[Cameron143]

Jude uses the phrase "twice dead" as a condemnation not a commendation

Then he is referring to physical and spiritual death.

 

[romans113336]

Then he is referring to physical and spiritual death.

He's talking about people who are on earth who are misbehaving, so, no, he's not talking about physical death.

 

[mailmandan]

Why does Jude say "twice dead"?

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NASB says "doubly dead."

Notice in Matthew 15:13 that Jesus said every plant that my Heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

 

[Cameron143]

Who said we were "under Law"?
I never did.
But being "under Grace" pertains to good works being done.

Sure. But not to merit or maintain salvation. You have unwittingly placed yourself back under the law. You are relating to God based on how well you perform and not on how well Christ performed.

 

[romans113336]

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NASB says "doubly dead."

Notice in Matthew 15:13 that Jesus said every plant that my Heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

He's condemning people who knew the right way, Christ, and abandoned it.

 

[Cameron143]

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NASB says "doubly dead."

Notice in Matthew 15:13 that Jesus said every plant that my Heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

Uprooted, and cast in the fire.

 

[romans113336]

Sure. But not to merit or maintain salvation. You have unwittingly placed yourself back under the law. You are relating to God based on how well you perform and not on how well Christ performed.

I am merely trying to follow Scripture.
Again, how do you hold your view when you read we're "condemned" if we sin (Ro 14:23)?
You still haven't answered that.

God relates to us not only through Christ's work, but also our own, apparently.
Have you read Revelation 2 and 3?

 

[mailmandan]

He's condemning people who knew the right way, Christ, and abandoned it.

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19).

In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants

 

[romans113336]

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19).

In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants

This is really getting off on a tangent.

Let's reel it back in.

The issue of "twice dead" was raised by another user. It's not the topic.

 

[Cameron143]

I am merely trying to follow Scripture.
Again, how do you hold your view when you read we're "condemned" if we sin (Ro 14:23)?
You still haven't answered that.

God relates to us not only through Christ's work, but also our own, apparently.
Have you read Revelation 2 and 3?

I already addressed this. Before a person is saved, they are under the wrath of God. They stand condemned...Ephesians 2:1-3. But when God saves a person, they have passed from death to life...1 John 3:14. As such we possess eternal life and are no longer under condemnation.
Thus, anyone still under condemnation cannot be saved. In Romans 14:23, Paul is either saying the individuals are not saved or acting the way unsaved people behave. I'm not in a position to research it at the moment.

 

[romans113336]

Sure. But not to merit or maintain salvation. You have unwittingly placed yourself back under the law. You are relating to God based on how well you perform and not on how well Christ performed.

This is a little technical.

The Jews were "saved" from Egypt, but they still fell under wrath for sinning.
The same can happen to us.
This is Paul's doctrine (1 Co 10).

HOWEVER, this does not mean God is distant or angry, or has a bad disposition toward us.
He is full of mercy and accepts us. He loves us.
So we shouldn't be afraid even though our ongoing and final justification depends on our doing good.

 

[timemeddler]

condemned doesn't automatically mean hell, and some translations just say sinning. I think it just means a negative judgement, and yes there are verses about gains and losses in heaven.

 

[romans113336]

I already addressed this. Before a person is saved, they are under the wrath of God. They stand condemned...Ephesians 2:1-3. But when God saves a person, they have passed from death to life...1 John 3:14. As such we possess eternal life and are no longer under condemnation.
Thus, anyone still under condemnation cannot be saved. In Romans 14:23, Paul is either saying the individuals are not saved or acting the way unsaved people behave. I'm not in a position to research it at the moment.

How do you interpret the Christian who is "condemned" (not justified) for not walking in faith (Ro 14:23)--which, walking in faith, also, James says is a believer's ongoing justification?