Didn't Jacob wrestle with God, and see God's face but live? Didn't Adam and Eve hear God walking in the garden after they sinned? Seems God can have a physical form, or be spirit, or be Love or whatever God wishes.
In heaven we will have a body of flesh and blood. Very interesting because angels can take on human form
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Didn't Jacob wrestle with God, and see God's face but live? Didn't Adam and Eve hear God walking in the garden after they sinned? Seems God can have a physical form, or be spirit, or be Love or whatever God wishes.
I agree, and that’s a very good point… Look
at it this way for a moment.
You will notice that word translated "man" is not "ish" as in regular every day man, but rather, "Enowsh" which is a mighty man, a just man, a man above men so to speak….
It is simply saying that God came in the flesh and dealt with Jacob. When God is in the flesh, who is He? Jesus (Yehoshua - there are various spellings for this word but you know that it means "God with us"). Melchizedec was also Jesus (Melchisedec (Greek) {Heb 7:1-5}) and spelled: (Melchizedec (Hebrew) {Gen 14:18-20})
Gen 32:24-30
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man [Enowsh]with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (KJV)
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man [Enowsh]with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (KJV)
Peniel: Hebrew word #6439 Penuw'el or (more properly,) Peniy'el- Penuel or Peniel = "facing God."
The Garden of Eden was a 'little piece' of Heaven until Adam and Eve ruined it {Gen 6:3}. They would have been immortal and not needed Jesus had they not sinned.
Ruined it? I don't see that. They were kicked out of it and it was still the same garden after.
They weren't ever immortal and no human can be sinless...only God the Son incarnated could do that.
Not that they ruined the garden, but they ruined the opportunity given to them by God.
But following that line of thinking,…
Who or what is this Big tree?
6All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
God told Adam if He ate he would die. Where is his death before that.
I don’t see any explanation that can change the following…
1 Corinthians 15:44
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 2 bodies.
The natural body is the flesh body, the same one we are in.
We will be resurrected in a natural/flesh body or a spiritual body. 2 different bodies.
The Bible tells us
Matthew 26:21
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak
The flesh is weak… why would we be resurrected in weak bodies…
1 Corinthians 15:44
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 2 bodies.
The natural body is the flesh body, the same one we are in.
We will be resurrected in a natural/flesh body or a spiritual body. 2 different bodies.
The Bible tells us
Matthew 26:21
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak
The flesh is weak… why would we be resurrected in weak bodies…
He died a symbolic death, also called a spiritual death. It happened the same day he ate from the tree. His physical death happened a VERY long time later because it was unrelated to his first sin. He was created mortal, from the ground and would return to the ground in the normal beginning and ending do all mortal life.
Context? Christ was speaking of the flesh of his human body not the flesh of his resurrected immortal body.
I see no evidence of a immortal flesh body.
1 Corinthians 15
44) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There is nothing here about an immortal flesh body. Christ died in a natural flesh body, and arose in a natural flesh body.
If you say Christ rose in a different type of flesh body…. then we have flawed skin the scriptures.
John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up
This temple, not a different one, or a changed one. Dying in a natural flesh body, and resurrecting in a immortal flesh body is not defeating death… Christ showed us this when He raised Lazarus.
The word immortal and flesh don't appear at all for either body. Not every sentence is going to include everything.
Scripture says this:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I already said I believe Jesus resurrected in his old body, then was changed into immortal. Also, no one destroyed his body...it didn't even begin to rot. I think taking his wording hyper literally is a mistake. All he was saying is that if he was killed he would resurrect from the dead which he did.
Because you had written of the four words for "man" earlier and offered this explanation of "enosh"...
...your statement caused me some confusion, so I looked up Genesis 32:24 to clarify the understanding and found that it does indicates the word 'ish' in that particular verse.
2nd Corinthians 4:11 For we who live are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
So now we have documentation that the flesh is mortal, and we are told
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal (flesh) shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When do you believe Jesus was changed?
Doesn't mean the immortal body doesn't have it's own type of flesh. Jesus was immortal after the resurrection. He ate and he was touched.
I answered that in my last post. It happened in that grave he was in.
There is no record of an “immortal flesh”
We are told the flesh is mortal.
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
The immortal can’t have its own type of flesh,
because there is only one type of flesh for men.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
One type of flesh for men, not two, just one.
And the one type of flesh belongs to the mortal.
Yes but there is a different flesh for the immortal body proven by Christ being in a immortal flesh body after resurrection.
Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
He had flesh and bones after resurrection.
Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
This body of incorruption and power is the body Christ had after resurrection and is what the likeness of our resurrection shall be.
But the idea of a immortal body, is not scriptural. By what authority do we have to call Christ resurrected body immortal?
Was Christ body immortal before the crucifixion? No
Christ was raised in the same body He died in… was that some immortal body? No
Your argument is based merely on you believe what you believe… But where is the evidence?
I asked you when did Christ body change from mortal to immortal…. You said:
Ok…. Now you must prove this….
After the resurrection Jesus walked through walls… Ok
Peter walked on water… was Peter in a immortal flesh body?
What about Lazarus?
Better yet what about these people?
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Are these saints in a immortal body also?
One of the many problems I see is this immoral body that you believe exist, has no foundation in scripture.
And this immortal body you describe is not like this one.
His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
Nor is it like this one…
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I really enjoy or discussions ewq1938 whether we agree or not, your type of dedication to the Word is inspiring…
The context to which you have referred to are those of a vision, whereas Jesus appeared in the flesh after His resurrection. I've gather that a point of contention that is difficult for you to get past is that Jesus' body had scars in His hands and in His side and it doesn't seem right that an immortal body should have any trace of trauma on it. However, it would make sense to me that, being 'the Lamb that is worthy,' His scars are notable in remaining as an everlasting testimony to the price He paid for our eternal redemption, as I wonder if His blood will, likewise, forever be present upon the altar in heaven as an everlasting testimony to refute any accusation that any of us have no right to have been granted immortality.
Wassup MEM…
It’s not that… There is only two bodies..
1 Corinthians 15
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 2 bodies..
The natural body is flesh and it is mortal.
2 Corinthians
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh
So our calculus is based in a parameter of two. A flesh body and a spiritual body. A natural body a supernatural body, an incorruptible body and a corrupted body.
If the the flesh body is mortal, by default spiritual would be immortal.
But now we have changed two into three.
By the logic presented we have a flesh mortal body, a spiritual immortal body, and a flesh immortal body.
Who authorized this third flesh immortal body?
Acts like 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
How is Jesus coming back?
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Ask yourself, does this sound like a flesh body?
And if we are raised like this immortal flesh Jesus, still showing our scars, then that really sucks for John… he will not have a head.
John's scar, or lack of a head, does nothing but condemn herod, and whats her name, salome, who most likely will go into eternity in the lake of fire. As Jesus' blood speaks better things than the blood of Abel, so do His scars.