You're ignoring God's word and defending some ridiculous nonsense you read in a booklet. I don't know what to say if you're not interested in listening to His word.
What is a church?
- Thread starter wattie
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You're ignoring God's word and defending some ridiculous nonsense you read in a booklet. I don't know what to say if you're not interested in listening to His word.
oops I meant-- baptised once. Re-baptism is only if you were baptised as an infant or in a wayward church
Matthew 16:20-- Jesus building His church. This would be a local congregation in question.. the institution of the local church.. because it's local in Matthew 18:20. Why would Jesus introduce the church one way.. and then contradict Himself later?
In Matthew 18:20-- this church can be spoken to and has discipline for wayward believers. It's obviously of a the local congregation. Matthew 16:20 would then be the introduction of this kind of church to follow logically.
You need this to be true for some reason. I don't know what that reason is, but when it trumps the clear word of God that's when I bow out. Later.
When one has been indoctrinated into a false belief. that person rarely gives it up. So it is with wattie.
Well if it was as an infant...that has nothing to do with baptism shown in the bible.
And then if the church you are in is wayward on the gospel, they don't have the authority to baptise
Do you realize the door you just opened?
It can also very easily be said - so it is with people who believe in a 'pre-trib' rapture...
You should always think about the scope of such a statement before you post it.
Do you realize the door you just opened?
It can also very easily be said - so it is with people who believe in a 'pre-trib' rapture...
You should always think about the scope of such a statement before you post it.
Of course there are also thousands of churches around the world that believe as I do
That doesn't make it right. But the majority of those people were convinced from the bible, that what I am showing is true.
Of course there are also thousands of churches around the world that believe as I do
That doesn't make it right. But the majority of those people were convinced from the bible, that what I am showing is true.
I seriously doubt that the "majority of those people" you talk about were convinced from the Bible. It's more likely they were convinced by preachers and Christian authors who they thought they were telling them the truth, so they just believed it. That's how it works in denominational Christianity. If a person seriously studies this, it won't take them very long to discover the truth.
They would usually be convinced from the bible it's true because it goes against popular views of the body of Christ. Therefore, they would usually make sure it is scriptural.
But understand... I am not saying if you aren't in the body of Christ you aren't converted. Entering the Family of God is by belief in Jesus.
Entering a body of Christ is by being baptised and then voted in or similar act.
So I'm not talking a salvation thing..but local church membership.
But anyways. Enough is said now me thinks.
I used to believe as you do - because, that is what I was taught growing up. Then I took a closer look at the scriptures and discovered/determined/decided that some of the 'details' were misrepresented in the teaching that I was used to hearing. What I believe now is discussed on that web page I posted a link to. I believe the truth lies somewhere between what you are saying and what everyone else is saying.Of course there are also thousands of churches around the world that believe as I do
That doesn't make it right. But the majority of those people were convinced from the bible, that what I am showing is true.
As much as I hate to say it - there is a lot of truth in this statement. This kind of thing happens way too often and is unfortunately the 'norm' for "modern-day organized religion"...
I beginning to see what this is really all about. The objection to the universal church by Independent Baptists is largely a reaction to Catholicism. While it's true Catholicism isn't the true universal church, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible does teach one, universal church and body. You can't ignore this fact simply because you disagree with Catholicism; or because to do so would go against your group's teaching.
as an aside, "gates" are not offensive armament.
gates are defensive.
so that they will not "prevail" against the church does not mean they will assault the church but the church will withstand - it indicates that they hell will not withstand the force of the church; the church is sent out into the world to do the work of Christ, Who seeks and saves the lost, even out of fire.
Well Catholics have a universal VISIBLE church. Protestants have a universal, invisible church.
Universal, invisible... came out of Catholicism teaching.
It is true independent Baptists are strongly against Catholicism. But the denial of a universal church is both the Catholic and Protestant teachings of it.
Aside from this though... Matthew 16:18.. Jesus introduces the church there. If He was meaning the every believer invisible church .. He then makes it something different in Matthew 18:20.
And another example is the body of Christ is described in 1 co 12.. if that is the every believer body... then I should be feeling the suffering of an African Christian suffering in Ethiopia...in fact I should have the weight of millions of suffering people.
But which body is described? Vs 27...the body at Corinth. It's about the local church.
That's how you arrive at denying a universal body of all believers. Altho I do believe it will be a body in the New Jerusalem. But not invisible, but local and visible.
I really don't know what you mean by "invisible church." I don't think I've ever heard that outside of theology books or from mystics. Are there believers around the world who are invisible to me? Of course. That doesn't make them any less a part of the body. I'm sure there are plenty of local churches around the world that are invisible to you. I guess they're visible and invisible.
I find it difficult to believe you even said this...No they do not - when have you ever even heard of all Catholics being assembled together in the same place?
Don't change your definition(s) based on group or creed - wharever applies to Baptists also applies to Catholics - or any other group.
Do you not define 'visible' in terms of it being a 'physical' assembly of people together in one location?