What is a church?

[oyster67]

Because it's hugely popular to call every believer the body of Christ... but it's highly unscriptural. If it doesn't meet, has no teaching, has no ordinances, it's not a body. It's not assembled. That's why I'm being picky.

A body of all believers maybe some kind of body...but it's not the way the bible defines a body. 1 co 12..is a local body.

This is rather confusing. Every born again believer is automatically in the Body of Christ, whether he or she is part of a local assembly or not. Ideally every local assembly should consist of only born again Christians, and every Christian should be within a local church. But that is often not the case. Only God sees who is within the Body and who is not. The NT pattern for every local assembly is provided in Acts 2, and throughout the epistles. Most churches have departed from this pattern and adopted many man-made ideas.

@Nehemiah6 is correct here. The Body of Christ is more than just a collection of local church houses. Many in local churches are not in the Body and many in the Body are not attending a local church house. It is also
completely acceptable to refer to the Body as the Bride, even before the heavenly glorification and consummation.

Revelation 22:17
“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

We who have the Spirit dwelling within have the privilege and responsibility of inviting others to come today... and that encompasses so much more than getting them into a local church house.

 

[wattie]

@Nehemiah6 is correct here. The Body of Christ is more than just a collection of local church houses. Many in local churches are not in the Body and many in the Body are not attending a local church house. It is also
completely acceptable to refer to the Body as the Bride, even before the heavenly glorification and consummation.

Revelation 22:17
“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

We who have the Spirit dwelling within have the privilege and responsibility of inviting others to come today... and that encompasses so much more than getting them into a local church house.

I don't mean a building though...but the group of saved baptised believers, covenanted together that meet in that house.

That is what a church is...it's never the material the group meets in. But is a local body of saved, baptised believers. That's how scripture defines it.

But anyway, what you call every believer as the body..I call the Family of God ..so it's no big deal really.

The main point being it's local churches that should be the source of all Christian teaching and other orgs should link to these churches..not be a rule to themselves.

 

[oyster67]

I don't mean a building though...but the group of saved baptised believers, covenanted together that meet in that house.

That is what a church is...it's never the material the group meets in. But is a local body of saved, baptised believers. That's how scripture defines it.

But anyway, what you call every believer as the body..I call the Family of God ..so it's no big deal really.

The main point being it's local churches that should be the source of all Christian teaching and other orgs should link to these churches..not be a rule to themselves.

The Word and the Spirit are the sources of teaching, understanding, and truth. Many local churches are devoid of both.

 

[GaryA]

That is what a church is...it's never the material the group meets in. But is a local body of saved, baptised believers. That's how scripture defines it.

Would it not be most helpful if you post the scripture you are referring to and explain how scripture defines it...?

 

[FollowingtheWay]

The main point being it's local churches that should be the source of all Christian teaching and other orgs should link to these churches..not be a rule to themselves

what says they are a rule to themselves ? The teaching and its authority comes from Jesus Christ.

As AwTozer stated

“Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other? They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow (Jesus). So one hundred worshipers met together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be, were they to become 'unity' conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.​

A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God: The Human Thirst for the Divine

 

[wattie]

Would it not be most helpful if you post the scripture you are referring to and explain how scripture defines it...?

Right.. so 1 Corinthians 12

(1Co 12:12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
(1Co 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1Co 12:14) For the body is not one member, but many.
(1Co 12:15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
(1Co 12:16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
(1Co 12:17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
(1Co 12:18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
(1Co 12:19) And if they were all one member, where were the body?
(1Co 12:20) But now are they many members, yet but one body.
(1Co 12:21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
(1Co 12:22) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
(1Co 12:23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
(1Co 12:24) For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
(1Co 12:25) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
(1Co 12:26) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
(1Co 12:27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


First off.. the church at Corinth is this body being described. In vs 27-- so that's local and visible

Second.. members of this body are individuals that are saved and baptised.. all of them were baptised into this body-- see vs 13

Thirdly.. vs 19-25.. this is describing the function of a local body, not every believer scattered everywhere. It makes no sense to apply it to any other entity.. other than another local body.

Next-- 1Ti_3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This is describing the local body. Not every believer.

Gal_1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

This is talking about the church at Jerusalem by context.. that Paul persecuted before he was converted. Not every believer.

I could go on.

The entity of every believer isn't the body of Christ.. that is the Family of God.. they are not the same thing. But anyways.. I am repeating and not really reasoning at this stage. So I'll take a different tack after this post.

 

[GaryA]

Did you read the web page linked to in post #32 after I posted it?

Did any of it make sense to you? Are you in agreement with any part(s) of that discussion?

 

[wattie]

Did you read the web page linked to in post #32 after I posted it?

Did any of it make sense to you? Are you in agreement with any part(s) of that discussion?

Yea I got it. I agree with all churches plural being called 'the church '

That's common English grammar ..such as 'the bar'. 'the horse '. 'the cat'

It's non specific to one dog or cat in particular but representative of an individual cat.

Same goes for 'the church' ... not one church in particular but representative of the local church unit.

So there I can agree...but I don't agree with calling all believers the body of Christ or 'the church'

 

[Nehemiah6]

Same goes for 'the church' ... not one church in particular but representative of the local church unit.

You are continuing to hold on to an erroneous view of "the Church" and local churches. "The Church" means the ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST WORLDWIDE. Every child of God is within "the Church".

So there I can agree...but I don't agree with calling all believers the body of Christ or 'the church'

Now you are disagreeing with Scripture. Do you seriously believe that these words were simply limited to the church at Ephesus?

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church: and he is the saviour of the Body. [NOTICE "THE CHURCH" AND "THE BODY" ARE THE SAME]
24Therefore as the Church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it; [THIS "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT" AUTOMATICALLY INCLUDES ALL BELIEVERS]
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. [HERE THE CHURCH IS SHOWN AS THE BRIDE, HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH, BEING PRESENTED TO THE BRIDEGROOM]

 

[wattie]

You are continuing to hold on to an erroneous view of "the Church" and local churches. "The Church" means the ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST WORLDWIDE. Every child of God is within "the Church".
Now you are disagreeing with Scripture. Do you seriously believe that these words were simply limited to the church at Ephesus?

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church: and he is the saviour of the Body. [NOTICE "THE CHURCH" AND "THE BODY" ARE THE SAME]
24Therefore as the Church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it; [THIS "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT" AUTOMATICALLY INCLUDES ALL BELIEVERS]
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. [HERE THE CHURCH IS SHOWN AS THE BRIDE, HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH, BEING PRESENTED TO THE BRIDEGROOM]

Right.. there is a body of all believers in the end when the New Jerusalem is formed. That is when all believers can be termed 'the church'

But in regards to Ephesians.. the church is compared to plural wives. Multiple wives. Ever heard of a 'universal wife?' .. 'local wife' is also terrible term.. but the fact that a wife is an individual of many.. matches that the church is one of many.

A glorious church, without spot or wrinkle.. isn't the current state of churches.. but when we are one body in heaven.. as the New Jerusalem.. it will be one body without spot or wrinkle.

Jesus died not only for every believer, but the local body He started also.

 

[wattie]

You are continuing to hold on to an erroneous view of "the Church" and local churches. "The Church" means the ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST WORLDWIDE. Every child of God is within "the Church".
Now you are disagreeing with Scripture. Do you seriously believe that these words were simply limited to the church at Ephesus?

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church: and he is the saviour of the Body. [NOTICE "THE CHURCH" AND "THE BODY" ARE THE SAME]
24Therefore as the Church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it; [THIS "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT" AUTOMATICALLY INCLUDES ALL BELIEVERS]
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. [HERE THE CHURCH IS SHOWN AS THE BRIDE, HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH, BEING PRESENTED TO THE BRIDEGROOM]

This is the case of the current local body at Ephesus with a comparison to the future one body of all believers in the end.

 

[wattie]

From https://www.jackhyles.com/church1.htm

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Ephesians 5:25
If anything refutes the invisible church, this is it. Jesus compares Himself and His church to a man and wife. Consequently, if there an invisible church, then a man has an invisible wife. Jesus does not love an invisible church. He could have chosen another relationship to compare it with. He could have chosen angels because they are invisible to us. He could have used spirits or souls, but He chose to use the visibility of a man and his wife. Jesus is talking about a visible organization which is His church and His body.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Here's what the Bible actually teaches about the church: "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

It's not complicated.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Here's a question. If an individual member of a local assembly leaves that group and is unaffiliated while they look for a new group, do they lose their status as a member of the body of Christ? How 'bout this: Do they forfeit their salvation? If the only way someone can be a member of the body is through a "local church," doesn't it stand to reason they lose their status as a member of the body of Christ if they leave that group?

This kind of thinking reminds me of cults that maintain control over their members by making them think if they leave their group they're doomed to Hell.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is the case of the current local body at Ephesus with a comparison to the future one body of all believers in the end.

Not future but present. Did Christ die for all, particularly those who have believed on Him? So we have a PRESENT REALITY and your refusal to accept it is a serious problem for you. Either the Body is already there or it is not. But the Bible says that the Holy Spirit baptizes or immerses each believer into that Body.

 

[wattie]

Not future but present. Did Christ die for all, particularly those who have believed on Him? So we have a PRESENT REALITY and your refusal to accept it is a serious problem for you. Either the Body is already there or it is not. But the Bible says that the Holy Spirit baptizes or immerses each believer into that Body.

The Family of God. This is what a believer joins at believing on Jesus Christ.

They join a local body of Christ through immersion baptism in water as a pre requisite to join one.

1 co 12 context is of the local body at Corinth. Therefore baptism by immersion in water becomes the baptism involved.

So.. there is the current entity of all believers that Jesus died for. John 3:16..3:36..5:24..6:40..Romans 5:8. Not all those believers are part of a local body of Christ...which Jesus also purchased with His blood.

I do believe in a current entity of all redeemed. I just believe it is not the body of Christ..not yet. But I believe it is the Family of God.

Have a read of Real Churches or a Fog by S E Anderson or My Church by J M Moody. Not to mention Hyles that I linked to and Arthur Pink on the Churches of God.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

They join a local body of Christ through immersion baptism in water as a pre requisite to join one.

So if one was to move to a different physical location into a different local church… to become a member of the body you believe a person needs to be re-baptized every time they change local churches? I’m struggling with that a bit. I know if that were the case most Americans by the time they are ready to raise a family of their own would have to be baptized a dozen times or more . If the individual has no permanent location like those on military bases, where they get moved when the unit moves base does that make them as believer constantly outside the local body their entire life? your theory does not work with the quite too often western mindset of families moving every 7 years on average at least in the USA. How many times should an Christian be re-baptized?

 

[ResidentAlien]

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, [singular] and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it [singular]." Matthew 16:18

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church [singular] of God." 1 Corinthians 15:9

"that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, [singular] not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing," Ephesians 5:27

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, [singular] which is the church [singular]," Colossians 1:24

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly [singular] and church [singular] of the firstborn who are registered in heaven," Hebrews 12:22-23

As these scriptures make abundantly clear, there is one body, His church (singular). Yes, there are many local assemblies or churches, but they are all part of the one universal body. I hope this will put this to rest once and for all. What the OP is saying is both unscriptural and is utter nonsense.

 

[wattie]

So if one was to move to a different physical location into a different local church… to become a member of the body you believe a person needs to be re-baptized every time they change local churches? I’m struggling with that a bit. I know if that were the case most Americans by the time they are ready to raise a family of their own would have to be baptized a dozen times or more . If the individual has no permanent location like those on military bases, where they get moved when the unit moves base does that make them as believer constantly outside the local body their entire life? your theory does not work with the quite too often western mindset of families moving every 7 years on average at least in the USA. How many times should an Christian be re-baptized?

No, re-baptised once.. that is all. Do it once and you have the pre-requisite to join one of God's churches. Joining another church you get voted in or similar thing like a letter of recommendation.

The baptism is a pre requisite, but not the actual joining. Salvation, after this getting water baptism by immersion.. that would be the things you'd need before joining. The actual joining is the vote in or such like. Anabaptists have been doing this for a very long time, even before the Reformation.

 

[wattie]

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, [singular] and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it [singular]." Matthew 16:18

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church [singular] of God." 1 Corinthians 15:9

"that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, [singular] not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing," Ephesians 5:27

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, [singular] which is the church [singular]," Colossians 1:24

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly [singular] and church [singular] of the firstborn who are registered in heaven," Hebrews 12:22-23

As these scriptures make abundantly clear, there is one body, His church (singular). Yes, there are many local assemblies or churches, but they are all part of the one universal body. I hope this will put this to rest once and for all. What the OP is saying is both unscriptural and is utter nonsense.

English grammar 'church'..

Same as 'the dog'... 'the cat' .. 'the horse'

Singular standing for plural.

'The horse is a magnificent animal'.. this is non-specific to one horse.. but is representing all horses. Normal English grammar.

Same thing applies to 'the church'.. when it is not specific to one congregation in particular.. it is in this sense of singular standing for plural.