In heaven we will have a body of flesh and blood. Very interesting because angels can take on human form

Truthnightmare · Sep 16, 2023

Mem said:

Well we know that man cannot look upon Gods face. If you see the face of God, you’re already dead. Ask Moses😊

But I think the manuscripts read different, and I'm not saying every time you see a verse that doesn’t fit your position, use the manuscripts to turn the wording. That’s not honest study.

Here ya go..

Job 19:26 "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"

The soul of life that gave your flesh identity, is no longer with that decayed flesh, but has gone to be with the Lord. Where it says, "yet in my flesh shall I see God"; That is not what the Massorah manuscripts say.

In the Hebrew it reads "yet I be out from by flesh body to see God." I will be out of my flesh when I see God. This is a big difference in the translation from what the Hebrew actually states. "Though I be in another body, other than the flesh body, I still shall see Christ"; is what this verse is saying.

I going to look more into this one Mem.

Magenta · Sep 17, 2023

Mem said:

Job 19:25-27a

Mem · Sep 17, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

I see that the Browns-Divers-Briggs study tool examples Job 19:26 as saying, "apart from my body, in disembodied state" and the American Standard Version (1901) says, "Then without my flesh I will see God;" but that is the only translation that I see it written that way.

Job said that he knew that his redeemer lived, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. Is this also, that in the end He will stand upon the earth different from my reading of it?

posthuman · Sep 17, 2023

Mem said:

NET Bible notes say the language is difficult to translate and plausibly could be read 'without my flesh' instead of 'in my flesh' - that the translation necessarily has an interpretational aspect.

it's a very informative resource for its marginal notes but at the same time it often has a very liberal slant ((in the sense of modern liberal theology, nothing to do with secular politics))

If indeed the translation must include interpretation then the rest of Job must inform it - does Job expect a physical resurrection? well, the very next verse...

Job 19:27

Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. [How] my heart yearns within me!

NET Bible notes offer no contradiction to the plain reading that Jobs own eyes will see His Redeemer. In keeping with its trying-to-be-objective deference to liberalism, it mentions that one scholar suggests Job means someone else but himself will see The Redeemer, but admits immediately that interpretation is "forced"

Inquisitor · Sep 17, 2023

JohnB said:

I think Jesus after the resurrection told Mary not to cling to Him. Because He had not yet ascended to the Father. It may be the case that Jesus discards the human form completely.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 17, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of "without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]". When animals were sacrificed under the Old Covenant ALL THEIR BLOOD WAS POURED OUT. And that is exactly how Christ shed His precious blood. ALL OF IT WAS POURED OUT AS A SACRIFICE.

To then say that Christ has retained or renewed His blood is to actually mock that sacrifice. And that is exactly what you are doing. He has applied His blood to the Mercy Seat in the heavenly sanctuary. Period. Any further speculation is sacriligious. Because of the great significance of the sacrificial blood of Christ, all humans since Noah were forbidden to consume blood. This even applies to Christians as noted in Acts 15. Therefore for Jews "kosher" meant that all the blood of the animal had been removed.

Mem · Sep 17, 2023

posthuman said:

NET Bible notes say the language is difficult to translate and plausibly could be read 'without my flesh' instead of 'in my flesh' - that the translation necessarily has an interpretational aspect.

it's a very informative resource for its marginal notes but at the same time it often has a very liberal slant ((in the sense of modern liberal theology, nothing to do with secular politics))

If indeed the translation must include interpretation then the rest of Job must inform it - does Job expect a physical resurrection? well, the very next verse...

Job 19:27

Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. [How] my heart yearns within me!

NET Bible notes offer no contradiction to the plain reading that Jobs own eyes will see His Redeemer. In keeping with its trying-to-be-objective deference to liberalism, it mentions that one scholar suggests Job means someone else but himself will see The Redeemer, but admits immediately that interpretation is "forced"

I assumed as much, that the resource, in order to maintain its scholarly principles and in so doing establish a more solid credibility, has obliqued to acknowledge all views including those contrary to the author's own.

Mem · Sep 17, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Mary thought Jesus was the gardener until she heard His voice. I would think she'd have immediately recognized Him if He were resurrected in His 'old' body.

Scripture tells us that we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And there is no mention of any 'man' in heaven prior to Jesus' ascension.

Mem · Sep 17, 2023

posthuman said:

over the last couple of months i listened to a couple hundred hours of a seminary class on church history. one key takeaway was that the church over time has two main branches, the Eastern and Western divisions of the Roman Empire. the RCC and the Protestants are out of the Western traditon, and the Orthodox churches & arguably, messianic groups, are out of the East.

there is a fundamental difference in approach to theology between the two - for some complicated reasons: the West approaches the deep mysteries of the Bible by trying to figure them out and giving various explanations. the East simply accepts them as mysteries and wonders at them.

i'm beginning to think we both have something to learn from each other ((!!!))

I'm glad to see such a wonder discussion has developed from what the OP had intended to get to getting busy with "other things"!

Pilgrimshope · Sep 17, 2023

posthuman said:

Why can’t we look and see him ? Are you thinking spiritual bodies don’t exist ? I’m really not able to follow your logic on this

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Think about this section

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,

we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:1-6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul speaks of our body like a tabernacle that we depart from and have another better one a heavenly one . Now consoder Peter facing his own death

“Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

think of what a tabernacle is , it’s like a building that a person is inside of . The one we live in now is o my for our ererhky life it’s made like the creation it’s created . It begins to die as soon as it comes alive it’s click begins to run it lets about 120 years like the bible said man would last after they sinned and cursed themselves with death

these flesh bodies will never enter y other realm of creation but this earth and the use we use them for they are like vehicles or a house we’re renting in the end we have to see the lord about how we treated our vehicle on earth but we have eternal heavenly bodies they are t flesh and blood

They are spiritual bodies not natural bodies they aren’t made for earth those ones die and decay adams geneology doesn’t live for ever he cursed himself with death .

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There isn’t just one body there’s a natural fleshly earthly body it’s temporary . Then there’s a resurrection body it’s a spiritual body and is eternal

aim not sure we’re understanding the term spiritual the same .

Cameron143 · Sep 17, 2023

posthuman said:

If i follow correctly, he's arguing that:

Christ is God
God is spirit
therefore Christ in heaven is not flesh

The objection i have in that, is that Christ ((God)) appeared in the flesh, died in the flesh and rose in the flesh - we agree on all that.
so if the argument is that He is spirit and doesn't change, why wouldn't i also argue that He never takes on flesh? or that He never ceases to have flesh?

so i am thinking, "doesn't change" isn't referencing His incarnation but other aspects, like His essence, His personhood, His character... because we have problems with His incarnation and His death and His resurrection and His ascension otherwise, or we might wind up denying His deity. Hebrews 12:8 prevents that because it says He's the same yesterday today forever - OGAG, once God always God hehehe

I agree with this assessment. And a very good recapitalization.

Cameron143 · Sep 17, 2023

Magenta said:

Because he was under a covenant of works and God would have given him eternal life. Also, had he never sinned, death could not have any effect on him.
The question is...would he have become a partaker of the divine nature? And the answer to this question may well be why God allowed sin to enter the world.

Cameron143 · Sep 17, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of "without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]". When animals were sacrificed under the Old Covenant ALL THEIR BLOOD WAS POURED OUT. And that is exactly how Christ shed His precious blood. ALL OF IT WAS POURED OUT AS A SACRIFICE.

To then say that Christ has retained or renewed His blood is to actually mock that sacrifice. And that is exactly what you are doing. He has applied His blood to the Mercy Seat in the heavenly sanctuary. Period. Any further speculation is sacriligious. Because of the great significance of the sacrificial blood of Christ, all humans since Noah were forbidden to consume blood. This even applies to Christians as noted in Acts 15. Therefore for Jews "kosher" meant that all the blood of the animal had been removed.

I'm fully aware of the significance of the blood. But life is also in the blood. If He arose corporally, He would have needed blood.

Truthnightmare · Sep 17, 2023

Mem said:

John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Would this not imply men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, are in heaven and were in heaven before Christ ascended?

Genesis 5
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did God take Him? Heaven?
wouldn’t that mean Enoch had to come down from heaven before he went up? And would you consider Enoch a man before he came down?

Magenta · Sep 17, 2023

Cameron143 said:

What do you mean when you say, God would have given Adam eternal life? When would God have done this?

Pilgrimshope · Sep 17, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look how it ends with two possibilities

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,

lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they beheaded John and crucified Jesus it didn’t change their hearts because they did this instead

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

israels covenant was always based upon thier response it could be a blessing or a curse from the start based on if they kept it perfectly or broke the covenant

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they never chose life they broke thier covenant when they killed thier king and messiah

and so the curse will devour the earth

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut of course we have the promise of a new creation

Truthnightmare · Sep 17, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look how it ends with two possibilities

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,

lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they beheaded John and crucified Jesus it didn’t change their hearts because they did this instead

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

israels covenant was always based upon thier response it could be a blessing or a curse from the start based on if they kept it perfectly or broke the covenant

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they never chose life they broke thier covenant when they killed thier king and messiah

and so the curse will devour the earth

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut of course we have the promise of a new creation

What an informative post you provided! I enjoy the OT, so referencing Malachi, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah in one post will get excited.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 17, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Yes the ot is a rich vast pot of wealth regarding the lord

The law and prophets witness Christ and the gospel

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve tested that’s statement and found a gem of a perspective I think regarding the old and new testaments and how they interact

also moses was the giver of the law and Elijah considered king of the prophets

“and said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:2-3, 11, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elijah: who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus the lord glorofied and two annointed men standing beside him thisnis the only event like this in scripture when he’s glorofied for that moment on earth on the Mount in the cloud with Moses and Elijah the law and prophets witness of Christ

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: ( Elijah did this )

and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, ( Moses did this )as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭

“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ewq1938 · Sep 17, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

But God can also make it so a person does not die when seeing His face:

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Cameron143 · Sep 17, 2023

Magenta said:

Don't know when He would have done it, but he is the first Adam and, as such, what was true of Christ is pictured in him.

In heaven we will have a body of flesh and blood. Very interesting because angels can take on human form

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