Why… we are not… and will not… go through the Tribulation.
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I am also a little confused on what exactly we are talking about in general here. "the tribulation" is in reference to what? the end of the world? Or are we talking about the end of the age that Jesus was describing in Mathew 24? Because tribulation is one of the very few things Jesus says we WILL have. This mark in the hand and head is symbolic language found throughout scripture, like this for example
Deuteronomy 11:18
“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
The mark on the hands just means to honor God with all you do, and the head is to honor Him with your thoughts. This is only one of MANY examples of God using this exact language used to describe this meaning. To believe that in this one case it means a literal mark is not a very strong argument in my opinion.
I just think it's important to really understand the terms and how they were used when these things were written. We can't jump in at the very end of the story with our 21st century understanding of these terms and think we understand what John was talking about then, in a Jewish mindset and worldview, and think we are getting it right.
This also applies to my very first question because it's always been my understanding that Christians are talking about the end of the world when talking about these things and that's just not what Jesus is talking about in Mat. 24 or what John is writing about in Rev. They are talking about the end of the AGE and the coming judgement on the covenant breaking Jews of that time that were screaming "crucify Him" and "His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children". The language used in Revaluation to describe Gods judgement including the term "day of the Lord", sound the exact same as they do in Rev, like this in Isaiah 13
"Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
to make the land a desolation
and to destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light. "
This judgement happen already and uses the same kind of exaggerated wording to describe the coming judgement on them.
I don't know how I wrote this much to your comment, but I guess I wanted to make sure I backed up my point, looking for a literal mark actually makes no sense at all in light of the rest the Bible. In my opinion.
Deuteronomy 11:18
“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
The mark on the hands just means to honor God with all you do, and the head is to honor Him with your thoughts. This is only one of MANY examples of God using this exact language used to describe this meaning. To believe that in this one case it means a literal mark is not a very strong argument in my opinion.
I just think it's important to really understand the terms and how they were used when these things were written. We can't jump in at the very end of the story with our 21st century understanding of these terms and think we understand what John was talking about then, in a Jewish mindset and worldview, and think we are getting it right.
This also applies to my very first question because it's always been my understanding that Christians are talking about the end of the world when talking about these things and that's just not what Jesus is talking about in Mat. 24 or what John is writing about in Rev. They are talking about the end of the AGE and the coming judgement on the covenant breaking Jews of that time that were screaming "crucify Him" and "His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children". The language used in Revaluation to describe Gods judgement including the term "day of the Lord", sound the exact same as they do in Rev, like this in Isaiah 13
"Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
to make the land a desolation
and to destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light. "
This judgement happen already and uses the same kind of exaggerated wording to describe the coming judgement on them.
I don't know how I wrote this much to your comment, but I guess I wanted to make sure I backed up my point, looking for a literal mark actually makes no sense at all in light of the rest the Bible. In my opinion.
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I basically agree with most of your reasoning and was only throwing a worm out to see if any big fish trolling around. 
So when the one world government and leader is established and a mark on the hand or forehead in enforced to buy and sell, you'll both take that mark because the mark of the beast is only symbolic?
I'm not being snarky, I'm just curious if you'll actually take that mark.
By the way, did you guys get the COVID vaccine shots?
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A distinct mark wouldn't be very deceptive. I was offered the vaccine free of charge and declined, taking my chances that I might die if I contracted it. Not that I worried that I would live or die either way, nor that I thought that it might be the mark. I was simply glad to be given the right to exercise my freedom of conscience and choice, being pretty sure the motb would rather not afford anyone that freedom. On the other hand, there are those that have been beheaded for 'not denouncing their Christian faith and taking up allegiance to' a certain 'group.' A group that those belonging to, do habitually 'mark' themselves with a certain name. You've certainly at least heard of this?
You're still alive and breathing right? So no. There's no attempt.
I just want to know if the people who think the mark is just symbolic will actually take the physical mark thinking it's safe with no repercussions.
We have the technology right now. It is a matter for when the one world government is formed with the AC installed for them to implement this technology.
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I just want to know if the people who think the mark is just symbolic will actually take the physical mark thinking it's safe with no repercussions.
We have the technology right now. It is a matter for when the one world government is formed with the AC installed for them to implement this technology.
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I Likewise, how can you be certain that you haven't already taken the mark? Might you convert as long as it isn't a physical mark? Hypothetically, of course, but I'm not that interested in expending much energy on hypotheticals. I trust you will be glad to let me know when it is installed.
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By the way, my father is going to the Philippines and flipped his lid when he found out that travelers have to register to show proof that they've taken their COVID vaccines/boosters a few days before the time that they will be travelling to the country.
When you register, you get a QR code. They stopped accepting paper scanned versions of this back in May of this year. The QR code must be provided through smart phone, tablet or laptop now. So I can see where this is going....
...when the mark is implemented, the airlines and governments will probably accept it through the mark as well.
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When you register, you get a QR code. They stopped accepting paper scanned versions of this back in May of this year. The QR code must be provided through smart phone, tablet or laptop now. So I can see where this is going....
...when the mark is implemented, the airlines and governments will probably accept it through the mark as well.
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That's why it's important to submit to the Holy Spirit in all things, including in time spent studying the Bible with Him. When the time comes, He will let us know. I'll definitely let you know, because I really don't want you getting it. This is why I asked you, because I want you to be aware.
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I am not hung up on anything. And, I rely on all three and ignore nothing. There is only one Olivet Discourse, and the details of all three accounts must agree - and they do.
I agree that the 'they' is future to 70 A.D.
Matthew 24:21 / Mark 13:19 / Luke 21:23b mark the start of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.
Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24 / Luke 21:25 mark the end of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.
Jesus "answered" even more than they asked.
Not just about 70 A.D.
Not just about the Second Coming.
But, both-and-all-between - the following ~2000 years.
Two separate 'events' - yes. But, until you show me a valid scriptural description of the END of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to - that puts it circa 70 A.D. - your remarks are meaningless. The Matthew and Mark accounts (in particular) clearly place the sun/moon/stars 'events' directly after the END of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to - there are no two ways about it. And, if those 'events' have not occurred yet...
I agree that the 'they' is future to 70 A.D.
Matthew 24:21 / Mark 13:19 / Luke 21:23b mark the start of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.
Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24 / Luke 21:25 mark the end of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.
Jesus "answered" even more than they asked.
Not just about 70 A.D.
Not just about the Second Coming.
But, both-and-all-between - the following ~2000 years.
Two separate 'events' - yes. But, until you show me a valid scriptural description of the END of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to - that puts it circa 70 A.D. - your remarks are meaningless. The Matthew and Mark accounts (in particular) clearly place the sun/moon/stars 'events' directly after the END of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to - there are no two ways about it. And, if those 'events' have not occurred yet...
There is no "valid scriptural description of the end of the great tribulation" just like there isn't a direct scriptural reference to the event itself described in Matt, Luke, and Mark as being the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem; but the historical record recorded primarily by Josephus clearly is that event. You seem to accept the one but not the other. If you accept what's described in the scriptures of Matthew, Luke, and Mark as the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem which is NOT specifically defined as such in the scriptures, then you should logically look for the answer to its end likewise, which is not in the scriptures, but also can be found in the Josephus historical record. The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem did end; if that was the great tribulation of Matthew, Luke, and Mark, which it is, then it ended. How did it not? That conclusion makes no sense.
Take what mark exactly? If you mean the Musk brain chip thing, then NO. I have no interest at all in "adding" anything to myself that isn't necessary or done while I was unconscious after crazy trauma, like the metal plates I have in bot arms, or the external fixator I had on my arm after I woke up following a motorcycle wreak. So I have a whole bunch of marks on my arms and head if that's what you mean.
I don't exactly know what getting the shot has to do with this, it's really none of your business what I choose to do medically either, but no I didn't, nor would I ever put an untested experimental drug into myself or my children, not under Trump and especially not when mandated by Biden. I am fortunate enough to have been born and raised in Florida so my company didn't try to force it on us, but I live in Fort Walton Beach, a HUGE military town, 2 air force bases in town, Eglin being the biggest AFB in the world, so there were a lot of people here that were forced to get it anyway, but no I didn't take that vaccine. Still wouldn't. So what exactly does that prove to you? Do I make the club?
What I did notice right before I was about to hit "post reply" I noticed that you didn't acknowledge, let alone engage my point at all. What do you say about this language about the marking of the head and hands being used in a very specific way in every other instance except this one in Revelation? Is that good exegesis? Let me ask it like this, what leads you to believe that this is the one exception in scripture where it's not being used symbolically? What is the evidence you've seen that shows this example isn't the same as every other example? And who did you vote for?
I don't exactly know what getting the shot has to do with this, it's really none of your business what I choose to do medically either, but no I didn't, nor would I ever put an untested experimental drug into myself or my children, not under Trump and especially not when mandated by Biden. I am fortunate enough to have been born and raised in Florida so my company didn't try to force it on us, but I live in Fort Walton Beach, a HUGE military town, 2 air force bases in town, Eglin being the biggest AFB in the world, so there were a lot of people here that were forced to get it anyway, but no I didn't take that vaccine. Still wouldn't. So what exactly does that prove to you? Do I make the club?
What I did notice right before I was about to hit "post reply" I noticed that you didn't acknowledge, let alone engage my point at all. What do you say about this language about the marking of the head and hands being used in a very specific way in every other instance except this one in Revelation? Is that good exegesis? Let me ask it like this, what leads you to believe that this is the one exception in scripture where it's not being used symbolically? What is the evidence you've seen that shows this example isn't the same as every other example? And who did you vote for?
Mark 4:11 He said to them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you [who have teachable hearts], but those who are outside [the unbelievers, the spiritually blind] get everything in parables,
Yes, it is a mystery to those in darkness, but not to those who walk in the light.
Romans 11:25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in;
Paul's ministry unveiled the mysteries to us.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish and strengthen you [in the faith] according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [of the plan of salvation] which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Yes it was kept secret in ages past, but it has been revealed to us through Paul's ministry and the ministry of the apostles.
1Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom once hidden [from man, but now revealed to us by God, that wisdom] which God predestined before the ages to our glory [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
This is what the revelation in the New Testament is all about, revealing God's mysteries to us.
1Corinthians 15:51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
The rapture was a mystery, it has been revealed to us. (It is the opening of the sixth seal). On the one hand when the rapture takes place it will be revealed to the world, but right now this truth is revealed to all those who are walking in the light.
Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ, 10 with regard to the fulfillment of the times [that is, the end of history, the climax of the ages]—to bring all things together in Christ, [both] things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him also we have [d]received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
The scroll with seven seals in Revelation is a title deed. Paul tells us this has been opened and revealed to us in Ephesians. Read Revelation, Jesus, the Lamb of God, opened this shortly after having been crucified.
Ephesians 3:3 and that by [divine] revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have already written in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read it you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not disclosed to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit; 6 [it is this:] that the Gentiles are now joint heirs [with the Jews] and members of the same body, and joint partakers [sharing] in the [same divine] promise in Christ Jesus through [their faith in] the good news [of salvation].
It has been a terrible doctrine that this scroll gets opened after the rapture. It is bogus and has no Biblical basis. You don't make doctrines based on typology, you do it based on black and white verses like these in Ephesians.
Colossians 1:26 that is, [j]the mystery which was hidden [from angels and mankind] for ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints (God’s people). 27 God [in His eternal plan] chose to make known to them how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in and among you, the hope and guarantee of [realizing the] glory. 28 We proclaim Him, warning and instructing everyone in all wisdom [that is, with comprehensive insight into the word and purposes of God], so that we may present every person complete in Christ [mature, fully trained, and perfect in Him—the Anointed].
Paul tells us repeatedly that opening up this mystery to us was the focus of his ministry.
Colossians 4:3 At the same time pray for us, too, that God will open a door [of opportunity] to us for the word, to proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I have been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear [and speak boldly and unfold the mystery] in the way I should.
We should all be praying for this to be spoken clearly, not telling others that these are things that no one can know.
2Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.
It is already at work and those who are one with the Spirit have been restraining this for the entire church age. When they are taken out of the way then it will be manifested to the world, just as the rapture will be when they see the sixth seal opened to them.
1Timothy 3:16 And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness:
He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh,
Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.
We are all supposed to be preaching this mystery, not telling people that it is a mystery and they can't know.
Yes, it is a mystery to those in darkness, but not to those who walk in the light.
Romans 11:25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in;
Paul's ministry unveiled the mysteries to us.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish and strengthen you [in the faith] according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [of the plan of salvation] which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Yes it was kept secret in ages past, but it has been revealed to us through Paul's ministry and the ministry of the apostles.
1Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom once hidden [from man, but now revealed to us by God, that wisdom] which God predestined before the ages to our glory [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
This is what the revelation in the New Testament is all about, revealing God's mysteries to us.
1Corinthians 15:51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
The rapture was a mystery, it has been revealed to us. (It is the opening of the sixth seal). On the one hand when the rapture takes place it will be revealed to the world, but right now this truth is revealed to all those who are walking in the light.
Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ, 10 with regard to the fulfillment of the times [that is, the end of history, the climax of the ages]—to bring all things together in Christ, [both] things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him also we have [d]received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
The scroll with seven seals in Revelation is a title deed. Paul tells us this has been opened and revealed to us in Ephesians. Read Revelation, Jesus, the Lamb of God, opened this shortly after having been crucified.
Ephesians 3:3 and that by [divine] revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have already written in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read it you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not disclosed to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit; 6 [it is this:] that the Gentiles are now joint heirs [with the Jews] and members of the same body, and joint partakers [sharing] in the [same divine] promise in Christ Jesus through [their faith in] the good news [of salvation].
It has been a terrible doctrine that this scroll gets opened after the rapture. It is bogus and has no Biblical basis. You don't make doctrines based on typology, you do it based on black and white verses like these in Ephesians.
Colossians 1:26 that is, [j]the mystery which was hidden [from angels and mankind] for ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints (God’s people). 27 God [in His eternal plan] chose to make known to them how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in and among you, the hope and guarantee of [realizing the] glory. 28 We proclaim Him, warning and instructing everyone in all wisdom [that is, with comprehensive insight into the word and purposes of God], so that we may present every person complete in Christ [mature, fully trained, and perfect in Him—the Anointed].
Paul tells us repeatedly that opening up this mystery to us was the focus of his ministry.
Colossians 4:3 At the same time pray for us, too, that God will open a door [of opportunity] to us for the word, to proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I have been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear [and speak boldly and unfold the mystery] in the way I should.
We should all be praying for this to be spoken clearly, not telling others that these are things that no one can know.
2Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.
It is already at work and those who are one with the Spirit have been restraining this for the entire church age. When they are taken out of the way then it will be manifested to the world, just as the rapture will be when they see the sixth seal opened to them.
1Timothy 3:16 And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness:
He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh,
Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.
We are all supposed to be preaching this mystery, not telling people that it is a mystery and they can't know.
The false prophet causes many to receive a mark in the hand or forehead. The mark will be required to buy or sell. If the mark were symbolic how would one confirm whether a person had it or not?
Rev 13:15-16
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Rev 13:15-16
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
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@Jimbone A very informative video concerning the mark I thought may be of interest: https://watch.endtime.com/new-on-endtime-plus/season:1/videos/666-the-mark-of-the-beast
The video is just one of many included in the Understanding the End Times Series.
The video is just one of many included in the Understanding the End Times Series.
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It really looks like you've set your heart on your ideas so why bother arguing about them? What matters is that when THE mark comes, you probably won't take it, just like when you refused the vaccine. That's all I needed to know. When people say "oh the mark is just symbolic," I get a little alarmed that they might take the mark. At the very least, I'm making you aware that the mark is physical and to be able to recognize it when the one-world government takes over and enforces their economic system.
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