There will be no Rapture!!!
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NO. They have always been the church as the church has always suffer4d tribulation. The end times trib is from satan and is a war against Christians:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The only way to not be a target of this war is to Depart in the apostasia.
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MusicMaster,
where does Jesus teach a SECRET TRIP back to Earth before His Second Coming?
BTW, i want Book, Chapter, Verses!
you said Irenaeus misunderstood John.
John, only knows what Jesus taught.
SO, where is it that Jesus mentions a ""SECRET TRIP"" to Earth before His Second Coming, that Irenaeus, would have misunderstood from John's teachings about the Coming/Rapture [Jesus]?
where does Jesus teach a SECRET TRIP back to Earth before His Second Coming?
BTW, i want Book, Chapter, Verses!
you said Irenaeus misunderstood John.
John, only knows what Jesus taught.
SO, where is it that Jesus mentions a ""SECRET TRIP"" to Earth before His Second Coming, that Irenaeus, would have misunderstood from John's teachings about the Coming/Rapture [Jesus]?
Acts 1:4-11
There are a host of other verses and chapters that lend greater detail to the Harpazo, which requires a systematic study of it all to see the panorama. If you aren't willing to do that depth of study, then we are at an impasse, and will get nowhere. I've pointed out some of the specifics, which you reject, so anything further is a waste of time given that you've made up your mind, no matter what anyone else says. Rhetorical rejection of other evidences is indicative of your firm planting upon the mound you're on, so it appears we are at a stalemate.
MM
There are a host of other verses and chapters that lend greater detail to the Harpazo, which requires a systematic study of it all to see the panorama. If you aren't willing to do that depth of study, then we are at an impasse, and will get nowhere. I've pointed out some of the specifics, which you reject, so anything further is a waste of time given that you've made up your mind, no matter what anyone else says. Rhetorical rejection of other evidences is indicative of your firm planting upon the mound you're on, so it appears we are at a stalemate.
MM
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There is only one that actually uses Harpazo and when it happens is placed after the trib has ended.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.
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No. I said that Irenaeus taught falsehoods. In spite of the good things he did by standing up against Gnosticism and such, he also taught falsehood, and I already covered this earlier in this thread. Did you not see it?
In a nut shell, he taught recapitulationism (the view that Christ’s atonement reversed the course of humankind from disobedience to obedience). This is an utterly false teaching! Period! Mankind in general has not EVER launched into a state of obedience. We are seeing proportions of disobedience that has never changed since the words of Yahshuah where Hw said:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
MM
In a nut shell, he taught recapitulationism (the view that Christ’s atonement reversed the course of humankind from disobedience to obedience). This is an utterly false teaching! Period! Mankind in general has not EVER launched into a state of obedience. We are seeing proportions of disobedience that has never changed since the words of Yahshuah where Hw said:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
MM
Musicmaster,
i believe in the Rapture!
so, you do not have to prove a Rapture to me.
but you said Ireneaus is wrong but he also believes in the Rapture, he believes, as he was taught, it comes AFTER the AC is revealed.
so, how is Irenaeus wrong, he believes in the Rapture?
i believe in the Rapture!
so, you do not have to prove a Rapture to me.
but you said Ireneaus is wrong but he also believes in the Rapture, he believes, as he was taught, it comes AFTER the AC is revealed.
so, how is Irenaeus wrong, he believes in the Rapture?
yeah, i was once a Southern Baptist but they preach so much bull .... and false doctrine, I left.
but, i know my Baptist friends are saved.
even the ex pastor, KKK henchman, hang someone off a Tree like an ornament and then stand in the pulpit claiming, OSAS!
they just believe the lies of Calvin over God's Holy Word.
but overall, their views do matter, even though, in many areas, they are so wrong it is ridiculous.
so, Ireneaus got something wrong.
everyone does.
even YOU!
but what does it have to do about when he says the Rapture happens?
but, i know my Baptist friends are saved.
even the ex pastor, KKK henchman, hang someone off a Tree like an ornament and then stand in the pulpit claiming, OSAS!
they just believe the lies of Calvin over God's Holy Word.
but overall, their views do matter, even though, in many areas, they are so wrong it is ridiculous.
so, Ireneaus got something wrong.
everyone does.
even YOU!
but what does it have to do about when he says the Rapture happens?
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You will search in vain in that quote where it is said that His feet touch the ground of this earth. Please prove your point...if you can.
If you believe the angels who spoke to the disciples were lying, then please prove that as well, because Yahshuah was showering the believers with blessings at His departure. When He comes in the second coming, when His feet touch the ground, It will be in judgement, blood and death.
So, who is the liar? Is it the angels, and therefore the two events of his coming allegedly being one and the same, or is it those who subjectively lump both comings into being one and the same? You can't have it both ways.
MM
If you believe the angels who spoke to the disciples were lying, then please prove that as well, because Yahshuah was showering the believers with blessings at His departure. When He comes in the second coming, when His feet touch the ground, It will be in judgement, blood and death.
So, who is the liar? Is it the angels, and therefore the two events of his coming allegedly being one and the same, or is it those who subjectively lump both comings into being one and the same? You can't have it both ways.
MM
Well, I will also admit that, although I do not follow Calvin, I will also defend him against the false beliefs that he was a teacher of God allegedly creating most of humanity to populate Hell, as is taught by what are called the hyper-Calvinists. They completely overlook that one reality of what is mentioned in scripture, which is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE. Calvin fully understood that as the caveat to the extremes some have pushed in the arena of extremes, such as God "electing" most for Hell. That falsehood will remain until the very end of this age.
MM
MM
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love the thumbs down, maybe that is why in the past 10 years the Southern Baptist Churches were condemned over their SINS!
best example: The sexual abuse scandal rocking the Southern Baptist Convention
In response to an explosive investigation, top Southern Baptists have released a previously secret list of hundreds of pastors and other church-affiliated personnel accused of sexual abuse.
The 205-page database was made public late Thursday. It includes more than 700 entries from cases that largely span from 2000 to 2019.
best example: The sexual abuse scandal rocking the Southern Baptist Convention
In response to an explosive investigation, top Southern Baptists have released a previously secret list of hundreds of pastors and other church-affiliated personnel accused of sexual abuse.
The 205-page database was made public late Thursday. It includes more than 700 entries from cases that largely span from 2000 to 2019.
What I oppose is the mid-trib and post trib-systems of thought. If the rapture happens right before antichrist is revealed, or immediately after, that matters not at all to me. The bottom line is that the Church is not reserved for wrath, and the idea that the wrath of God doesn't start until the vials...that's utterly false.
MM
MM
i am like Irenaeus proposed that John taught, PRE-WRATH.
the first real ACT of Wrath after the AC reveals he is God and makes war on the Jews who go into hiding in Petra.
next act of Wrath is the MOB/Beheading.
We are gone before the Beheading/WRATH, according to Ireneaus [Apostle John].
so, it's not about tribulation [pre-mid-post], it's about WRATH, and we the CHURCH, are Pre-Wrath.
the first real ACT of Wrath after the AC reveals he is God and makes war on the Jews who go into hiding in Petra.
next act of Wrath is the MOB/Beheading.
We are gone before the Beheading/WRATH, according to Ireneaus [Apostle John].
so, it's not about tribulation [pre-mid-post], it's about WRATH, and we the CHURCH, are Pre-Wrath.