There will be no Rapture!!!

[Musicmaster]

I didn't say it wouldn't happen. I am saying it doesn't happen to remove people to keep them from the evil one which means the Church will be persecuted and killed by the evil one (the antichrist backed by satan). The rapture happens when the trib has ended.

You seem to have missed the fact that the evil one will not kill off the Church:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him (the antichrist) to make war with the saints (not the Church since the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the since it is no longer on the earth), and to overcome them (the saints, not the Church): and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations (Not the Church since the Church will not be on this earth).

MM

 

[cv5]

One thing is for sure...whoever WANTS to stay here for the Tribulation, they are free to do so.

As for me, I pray the prayer Christ commanded concerning the Harpazo!

MM

Actually.....anyone who is truly saved will definitely be raptured without exception.
Clueless Biblically illiterate naysayers can be Christians too I suppose.
Is there a level of cluelessness that makes one unsaved? Such things are not for me to judge.

 

[Musicmaster]

Actually.....anyone who is truly saved will definitely be raptured without exception.
Clueless Biblically illiterate naysayers can be Christians too I suppose.
Is there a level of cluelessness that makes one unsaved? Such things are not for me to judge.

I don't believe that non-belief in the rapture is the sin of unbelief...not at all. This is a peripheral issue. However, if these people want to be here during those years, then more power to them.

As for all the lauding and touting Irenaeus, he also was a teacher of what was called the atonement theory, also known as the "recapitulationism" (the view that Christ’s atonement reversed the course of humankind from disobedience to obedience)...which was totally false, and thus makes him a false teacher when addressing something of that importance against Christ and His actual teachings.

So, hey, if they want to follow him and his teachings with the knowledge that he was a false teacher, then they are more than welcome to try and survive the Tribulation if they so desire. I'm not here to take away from anyone their right to remain in this world during that horrific period of time that is coming!

MM

 

[ewq1938]

You seem to have missed the fact that the evil one will not kill off the Church:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

That's not the tribulation of the end times though. Even you proved yourself wrong with the verse you posted:

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him (the antichrist) to make war with the saints (not the Church since the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the since it is no longer on the earth), and to overcome them (the saints, not the Church): and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations (Not the Church since the Church will not be on this earth).

MM

The saints are the Church.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These will be killed in the trib. They are the church.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These people are the Church! They will be killed in the trib.

 

[selahsays]

You don’t agree with the underline below?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes, I very much believe this. It is written, and this will happen at the 7th trump. Jesus returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[John146]

Yes, I very much believe this. It is written, and this will happen at the 7th trump. Jesus returns as King of kings and Lord of lords. View attachment 255889

Soooo, he catches us up in the clouds only to bring us immediately back down?🤔

1. When does the marriage of the Lamb take place?
2. When does the judgement seat of Christ take place?

 

[John146]

Actually.....anyone who is truly saved will definitely be raptured without exception.
Clueless Biblically illiterate naysayers can be Christians too I suppose.
Is there a level of cluelessness that makes one unsaved? Such things are not for me to judge.

I don’t want you to be ignorant brethren….😂

 

[cv5]

and this will happen at the 7th trump. Jesus returns as King of kings and Lord of lords. View attachment 255889

As usual, you are mistaken. The slaughter of the Saints BEGINS in earnest in the Revelation 13.
Subsequent to the Antichrist achieving maximum power and authority.

See Rev 13:7, 10 & 15.

You do realize the seventh trumpet sounded back in Rev 11......right? RIGHT?

 

[cv5]

I don’t want you to be ignorant brethren….😂

You nailed it buddy........

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't believe that non-belief in the rapture is the sin of unbelief...not at all. This is a peripheral issue. However, if these people want to be here during those years, then more power to them.

As for all the lauding and touting Irenaeus, he also was a teacher of what was called the atonement theory, also known as the "recapitulationism" (the view that Christ’s atonement reversed the course of humankind from disobedience to obedience)...which was totally false, and thus makes him a false teacher when addressing something of that importance against Christ and His actual teachings.

So, hey, if they want to follow him and his teachings with the knowledge that he was a false teacher, then they are more than welcome to try and survive the Tribulation if they so desire. I'm not here to take away from anyone their right to remain in this world during that horrific period of time that is coming!

MM

You don't believe you will be raised in the flesh(breathing air/the breath of life a living soul)?

 

[Inquisitor]

Because the false prophet is the antichrist, also Paul's man of sin. Both perform miracles to deceive.

There are two beasts, the first and the second beast.

The dragon hands his kingdom and throne over to the first beast. See the verse below.

Revelation 13:4
They worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

Then we have the second beast.

Revelation 13:11-12
Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who live on it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

So who is the antichrist?

 

[iamsoandso]

No,,,who's on first base and what's on second...

 

[selahsays]

As usual, you are mistaken. The slaughter of the Saints BEGINS in earnest in the Revelation 13.
Subsequent to the Antichrist achieving maximum power and authority.

See Rev 13:7, 10 & 15.

You do realize the seventh trumpet sounded back in Rev 11......right? RIGHT?

Of course! Why are you so surprised? It is written; have you not read it? The events that lead up to the gathering back to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are described in the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation. This chapter also identifies the two witnesses and what will happen to them. This is not a secret, @cv5, since God is revealing these things to His elect beforehand. No, we’re not flying away anywhere. Only those who are afraid to stand up for Jesus believe this.

 

[cv5]

Of course! Why are you so surprised? It is written; have you not read it? The events that lead up to the gathering back to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are described in the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation. This chapter also identifies the two witnesses and what will happen to them. This is not a secret, @cv5, since God is revealing these things to His elect beforehand. No, we’re not flying away anywhere. Only those who are afraid to stand up for Jesus believe this.

That is not a reply that solves the paradox you have set forth. Just a bunch of incoherent bafflegab. Which of course can only be expected.

So again, how can some supposed Church be raptured at the chapter eleven 7th trumpet when the "saints" are in fact being overcome, hounded, murdered and persecuted like never before in chapter 13? And shall continue be unabated until the SC?

And how is (it many of "you" say) that the King of Peace has come (for the Church? to the earth?) in chapter 11, while at the same time the AC has been just been made king in chapter 13? And this Satan/man king does all that he wills? For a period of 42 months......right up to the point of the SC?

Furthermore, the worship of King Jesus is not so much as noted in chapter 13.....ONLY THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST.

Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[cv5]

That is not a reply that solves the paradox you have set forth. Just a bunch of incoherent bafflegab. Which of course can only be expected.

So again, how can some supposed Church be raptured at the chapter eleven 7th trumpet when the "saints" are in fact being overcome, hounded, murdered and persecuted like never before in chapter 13? And shall continue to be unabated until the SC?

And how is (as many of "you" say) that the King of Peace has come (for the Church? to the earth?) in chapter 11, while at the same time the AC has been just been made king in chapter 13? And this Satan/man king does all that he wills? For a period of 42 months......right up to the point of the SC?

Furthermore, the worship of King Jesus is not so much as noted in chapter 13.....ONLY THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST.

Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Correction for clarity:

So again, how can some supposed Church be raptured at the chapter eleven 7th trumpet when the "saints" are in fact being overcome, hounded, murdered and persecuted like never before in chapter 13? And shall continue to be persecuted unabated until the SC?

And how is (as many of "you" say) that the King of Peace has come (for the Church? to the earth? what? where?) in chapter 11, while at the same time the AC has been just been made king in chapter 13? And this Satan/man king does all that he wills? For a period of 42 months......right up to the point of the SC?

 

[Musicmaster]

That's not the tribulation of the end times though. Even you proved yourself wrong with the verse you posted:





The saints are the Church.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These will be killed in the trib. They are the church.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These people are the Church! They will be killed in the trib.

Nope. Wrong. The Tribulation saints are NOT the Church, and the silence of mention screams against your assumption. Chapter 7 makes it clear that the Tribulation saints do not have crowns on their heads when in the presence of the Lord and His Throne. This intentional disregard for the totality of the imagery presented is astoundingly selective. The Church has crowns on our heads in eternity, but the Tribulation saints do not.

Like I said, if you want to be among those who remain for the Tribulation, and therefore do not have a crown on their heads because they were not prepared, as shown in the five foolish virgins, that's on you, not anyone else. None of the shuck and jive warps and twists of the text will suffice in proving your case.

Even my brethren, Israel...as I am an Israelite, will suffer tremendous loss and destruction, as is shown in Zechariah 12-14, with two thirds of my brethren wiped out before the remaining third FINALLY acknowledge that their forefathers had pierced Messiah, and that realization will only come to them after they see Him returning for His second return.

Some of you people completely miss what the angels stated concerning the Rapture, when the disciples were watching Yahshuah ascending into the clouds, and the angels told them that He would come again for them as they had seen Him going, which is showering them with blessings. The Second Coming of Yahshuah, when His feet touch down upon the earth, will be in wrath, fire and blood. Again, some of you ignore the obvious in order to hang on to your pet doctrines.

Hey, if that's what you want, then keep on missing the obvious, and you may end up getting your wish to remain here during that horrid time, like the five foolish virgins who were barred from entering into the wedding celebration. Say here if you wish. That's on you!

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You don't believe you will be raised in the flesh(breathing air/the breath of life a living soul)?

I don't understand the foundation(s) of your question, nor even how it apples to what I said.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Actually.....anyone who is truly saved will definitely be raptured without exception.
Clueless Biblically illiterate naysayers can be Christians too I suppose.
Is there a level of cluelessness that makes one unsaved? Such things are not for me to judge.

Well, that's not exactly true. Luke 21:36 makes it clear that there is qualification exclusive of salvation for the Rapture. All ten of the women were virgins, but five were foolish because they were not prepared. They did not have oil, and therefore had to go out among merchandising to try and get it, and were still too late...not prepared, and therefore left outside of the wedding celebration. They were still virgins, they were still pure, but just foolish and unprepared.

Some have told me that that the imagery of the ten virgins is exclusive to Israel. Well, I'm an Israeli, and I do not see that context as being exclusive to Israel alone. Zechariah's words were exclusive to Israel, but not those written about the ten virgins.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I remain mystified at the rejection for recognizing the amazing shift within Revelation that some are willing to practice. John made an amazing shift in his pronouns and nouns when leaving off any mention of the Church after chapter 3 of Revelation. Some assume the "saints" in the Tribulation are still the Church, and therefore the Church being here during that period when the antichrist is given power over the "saints", which is completely counter to the declaration of the Lord that the gates of Hell will NOT prevail against the Church!

Why some turn such a blind eye to these things, and therefore perpetrate contradictions that they cannot explain away like this...totally escapes me.

Revelation mentions the Church seven times in just the first three chapters, and then...silence!

Dare we be intellectually honest, there is meaning in the silence. Great mystery surrounded Revelation and many other of the end time prophecies, shrouding specifics that would not be revealed until the appointed time, and yet some continue to rely on the mists of the past where things were shrouded from the eyes of those people in the past that we now can and do understand by way of the Spirit of the Lord and deeper study.

25% of the entire Bible concerns the end times, which means that the Bible speaks more about the end times than any other topic throughout, and some choose blindness for the sake of being right at all costs...even to observing ALL the indicators that contradict their beliefs.

Hey, stay here if you wish. I have a feeling that those who want to be counted among the five foolish virgins will get their wish...

MM

 

[Omegatime]

That is not a reply that solves the paradox you have set forth. Just a bunch of incoherent bafflegab. Which of course can only be expected.

So again, how can some supposed Church be raptured at the chapter eleven 7th trumpet when the "saints" are in fact being overcome, hounded, murdered and persecuted like never before in chapter 13? And shall continue be unabated until the SC?

And how is (it many of "you" say) that the King of Peace has come (for the Church? to the earth?) in chapter 11, while at the same time the AC has been just been made king in chapter 13? And this Satan/man king does all that he wills? For a period of 42 months......right up to the point of the SC?

Furthermore, the worship of King Jesus is not so much as noted in chapter 13.....ONLY THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST.

Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

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Question for you cv5--I know you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Do you also believe the resurrection takes place at same time??? If you do when is the end of the harvest???