Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

... same old ad hominem fallacious response due to your inability to refute the central points raised in the post submitted by me in response to your erroneous dogma.

ad hominem – this fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

you do know that ad hominem is one of the lowest forms of debate ... yes???

Name-calling is the lowest form of argument, and unfortunately, also the most common ... Ad hominem arguments attack the individual rather than their claim/idea.

.

More unbelief !

 

[brightfame52]

@reneweddaybyday

I also believe all descendants of Adam ... believer and unbeliever alike ... have faith.

Well you believe a lie

2 Thess 3:2

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

 

[Evmur]

I believe everything we have and are is a gift from God.

I also believe all descendants of Adam ... believer and unbeliever alike ... have faith.

The issue is in what ... or more importantly in Whom do we place our faith.

Atheists have faith. The problem atheists have is they place their faith in the lie that there is no God.

Pagans have faith. The problem pagans have is they believe there are many gods.

Some hear God's Word and restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Romans 1:18 ... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Notice Romans 1:18 does not state that they do not have faith. Romans 1:18 states that they hold the truth in unrighteousness. The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, suppress, hinder.

Those who do not restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness are those who hear the truth and believe as shown in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ...

In 1 Corinthians 3:6, we are told that one plants ... another waters ... but God gives the increase.

So when one plants or waters the truth of God's Word and the hearer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, God brings increase.

And when God gives increase, I do not believe a person is given more and more faith. I believe God giving increase means that God strengthens the faith of the one who believes.

For those who remain weak in faith, it's not because they have less faith than the one who is strong in faith. The weak in faith are weak because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness or they are not taught the truth of Scripture and so remain ignorant. Because God only brings increase regarding His Word, when someone suppresses the truth (or is taught lies), God has nothing to increase, so they remain weak in faith.

That is why it is imperative that we take heed how we build upon the foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
.

that's ok the scripture also refer to "the faith" meaning that specific faith which comes only from God as a free gift. Natural faith, say the faith we have that a well made chair will not collapse when we sit upon it is knowledge, science, not faith.

There is "saving faith" that faith which is imparted to us when we hear the gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

Sinners that are Justified before and by God before they believe! 5

This is True once again because sinners Christ died for are by His death alone, redeemed from the curse of the Law before they believe Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Hence they are redeemed from and Justified before God from the curse of the Law before they believe ! 24

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word "comes" is not in the text ... the text reads so faith by hearing and hearing by Word God.

So now that I have heard the word my faith is increasing…

Do you believe what is written in Rom 10:17? if so, God brings increase.

on the other hand, if you suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), God has nothing to increase because the truth has been rejected by the hearer.
.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The word "comes" is not in the text ... the text reads so faith by hearing and hearing by Word God.





Do you believe what is written in Rom 10:17? if so, God brings increase.

on the other hand, if you suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), God has nothing to increase because the truth has been rejected by the hearer.
.

Yes, I believe the aforementioned scripture, but God just doesn’t bring the increase, He is the start of faith… as it is written..
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sinners that are Justified before and by God before they believe!

... nope ... Scripture tells us when God justifies a person:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

because the Elect of God are in Christ before they believe Ephesians 1:4

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

We know that before the foundation of the world, the plan of redemption was put in place because God, in His omniscience, knew that Adam and Eve would sin.

We also know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Elect of God.

From John 3:16, we learn that WHOSEOVER believeth in Him has everlasting life.

God chose faith IN the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Elect of God ... that is what is chosen before the foundation of the world. WHOSOEVER believeth.

Under your rendering, God "chose" Johnny but not Mary, as if eenie-meenie-miney-mo, Johnny yes, Mary no. That is not God's plan.

Those who reject? God provided to them all that is needed to come to faith, but because they reject the Elect, God has chosen to not choose those who reject.

Jn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But he was not condemned before he believed, because he was in Christ before he believed!

... just more of your "born again in order to be born again" dogma.

no one is "in Christ before he believed!" ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


There is only one offering that covers the sin of mankind ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

If one rejects the Lord Jesus Christ, he or she condemns him/herself because he/she did not believe in the One Whom God sent to be the propitiation for sin.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

ripping a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

Let's look at Galatians 3:13 in context

Galatians 3:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


vs 10 – if you start reading in vs 1, you see that some in the church at Galatia had been led away from the truth of Scripture ... see vss 2-3 (Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ... having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?) ... they were being taught that they had to follow the law in order to be justified. Verse 10 points out that if justification comes by the works of the law, then you have to continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

vs 11 – no man is justified by the law in the sight of God ... The just shall live by faith ... not from works to faith or from faith to works ... from faith to faith. The life of the born again one begins in faith and the born again one is to continue to live by faith alone.

vs 12 – the law is not of faith ... I know you believe this so no issue.

vs 13 – all descendants of Adam are (or were) under the curse of the law because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23; Rom 5:12). The Lord Jesus Christ, in His immeasurable love for all mankind, was made a curse for us when He was crucified. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ remain under the curse of the law and will receive the consequence.

vs 14 – That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The whole point of this section is that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ... not the works of the law. And nowhere in this section are we taught that the promise of the Spirit is received by a person before they believe, notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary.

Hence they are redeemed from and Justified before God from the curse of the Law before they believe !

nope ... your erroneous dogma wholly ignores the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed a verse.

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

Because you ignore context, the content of your erroneous dogma is filled with your eisegesis.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

2 Thess 3:2

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Here is the verse in the Greek:

SBL Greek New Testament 2010
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.


Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις


See the word ἡ ?

That is the definite article "the".


The ISV correctly renders 2 These 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

Here is the verse from the NLT: Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.

The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

that's ok the scripture also refer to "the faith" meaning that specific faith which comes only from God as a free gift.

Please provide Scripture which supports your statement. thank you.

Natural faith, say the faith we have that a well made chair will not collapse when we sit upon it is knowledge, science, not faith.

According to Scripture, there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) ... and mankind utilizes faith properly by believing truth or mankind utilizes faith improperly by rejecting truth.

All mankind has intellect and we have no problem believing there is only one intellect and we either use our intelligence wisely or foolishly. If we use intellect wisely, we gain knowledge and wisdom. If we use intellect foolishly, we remain ignorant. The point is that all mankind has intellect ... inherently given by God Who is loving toward all mankind.

Likewise, when it comes to faith, all mankind has faith ... inherently given by God Who is loving toward all mankind. If faith is properly used by a person, he or she will reap the blessings God promises in His Word. If faith is not properly used because a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he or she will reap the consequences God promises in His Word.

For some reason, we have a problem with the faith issue ... however, no problem with the intellect issue.

There is "saving faith" that faith which is imparted to us when we hear the gospel.

I understand that is what you believe.

I believe faith is inherent in each and every descendant of Adam ... just as intellect is inherent ... and the senses are inherent. I believe what is "imparted" to us is a strengthening of faith whenever that faith is properly utilized by the hearer of truth.
.

 

[Evmur]

Please provide Scripture which supports your statement. thank you.





According to Scripture, there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) ... and mankind utilizes faith properly by believing truth or mankind utilizes faith improperly by rejecting truth.

All mankind has intellect and we have no problem believing there is only one intellect and we either use our intelligence wisely or foolishly. If we use intellect wisely, we gain knowledge and wisdom. If we use intellect foolishly, we remain ignorant. The point is that all mankind has intellect ... inherently given by God Who is loving toward all mankind.

Likewise, when it comes to faith, all mankind has faith ... inherently given by God Who is loving toward all mankind. If faith is properly used by a person, he or she will reap the blessings God promises in His Word. If faith is not properly used because a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he or she will reap the consequences God promises in His Word.

For some reason, we have a problem with the faith issue ... however, no problem with the intellect issue.





I understand that is what you believe.

I believe faith is inherent in each and every descendant of Adam ... just as intellect is inherent ... and the senses are inherent. I believe what is "imparted" to us is a strengthening of faith whenever that faith is properly utilized by the hearer of truth.
.

Paulsaid "not all men have faith!"

Jesus said to His detractors "you cannot believe" again He says "God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Me and be saved"

It is an awesome truth that God's keeps some people from believing.

You yourself cannot believe ... not of yourself, not with all the intellect in the world could you by any means whatsoever believe that Jesus could live again after being nailed to the cross ... the faith to believe the gospel is a supernatural gift.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, I believe the aforementioned scripture, but God just doesn’t bring the increase, He is the start of faith… as it is written..
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Just before verse 44, the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 6:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Some of those that "saw" Him did not believe.

Also, in John 12 Jesus said

John 12:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

All descendants of Adam have opportunity to believe ... some reject ... not because they do not have faith, but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, just as shown in Romans 1.

He is the start of faith

Hebrews 12:

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

in vs 2, the word "author" is translated from the Greek word arxēgós. arxēgós does not strictly mean "author," but rather "a person who is originator or founder of a movement and continues as the leader – i.e. 'pioneer leader, founding leader' " (HELPS Word-studies).

The word "finisher" is translated from the Greek word teleiōtḗs, which means consummator, bringing a process to its finish (used only in Heb 12:2). teleiōtḗs ("consummator") specifically refers to Jesus, the one bringing the life of faith to its complete conclusion (consummation, finish). (HELPS Word-studies).


I love this verse ...

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The Lord Jesus Christ is our life. Without Him, we have physical existence, but no life.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Paulsaid "not all men have faith!"

Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ?

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Jesus said to His detractors "you cannot believe"

chapter and verse please. thanks.

again He says "God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Me and be saved"

God reaches out to mankind and mankind resists Him. God's response to those who resist:

In Matt 13, He speaks in parables because their heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed. The people closed their eyes and stopped their ears.

In John 12, though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him ... The people saw so many miracles, yet believed not.

In Acts 28, because some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not ... they agreed not amongst themselves ... Paul told them Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it (Acts 28:28).

It is an awesome truth that God's keeps some people from believing.

It is an awesome truth that God continues to reach out to people even though they reject Him in spite of God having provided all that is needed to come to faith in His provision for them ... the Lord Jesus Christ.

You yourself cannot believe ... not of yourself, not with all the intellect in the world could you by any means whatsoever believe that Jesus could live again after being nailed to the cross ... the faith to believe the gospel is a supernatural gift.

I don't believe "with intellect". Intellect is the faculty of reasoning [the action of thinking about something in a logical way] and understanding objectively [in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions].

I believe with faith ... the faith inherent in each and every descendant of Adam in order for people to respond to God when He comes a-calling.

And He reaches out to every single person during the life of a person.

Those who do not resist Him receive the blessing He promises:

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Those who resist by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to suppress, to restrain.

In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who causes mankind to suppress/restrain ... nor is it satan who causes mankind to restrain ... it is the person himself or herself.

In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.
.

 

[Evmur]

Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ?

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.





chapter and verse please. thanks.





God reaches out to mankind and mankind resists Him. God's response to those who resist:

In Matt 13, He speaks in parables because their heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed. The people closed their eyes and stopped their ears.

In John 12, though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him ... The people saw so many miracles, yet believed not.

In Acts 28, because some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not ... they agreed not amongst themselves ... Paul told them Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it (Acts 28:28).





It is an awesome truth that God continues to reach out to people even though they reject Him in spite of God having provided all that is needed to come to faith in His provision for them ... the Lord Jesus Christ.





I don't believe "with intellect". Intellect is the faculty of reasoning [the action of thinking about something in a logical way] and understanding objectively [in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions].

I believe with faith ... the faith inherent in each and every descendant of Adam in order for people to respond to God when He comes a-calling.

And He reaches out to every single person during the life of a person.

Those who do not resist Him receive the blessing He promises:

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Those who resist by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to suppress, to restrain.

In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who causes mankind to suppress/restrain ... nor is it satan who causes mankind to restrain ... it is the person himself or herself.

In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.
.

How far outside the scriptures will you go? if you wish to continue on in purely fleshly arguments how is it that until the gospel reached Europe not one single person believed and got saved? the same is true of Africa, China and the Red Indians.

Faith cometh

That means it wasn't there before.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The fact is God reveals Himself to some and hides Himself to others. At present He is by and large hidden from Jewish people, why? because He has purposed it so.

When Moses lifted up the serpent upon the pole whoever looked would be healed EVERYONE who simply looked. But the British couldn't look could they? Anakim couldn't look, the Egyptians. The promise was made to the Jews only.

God works this way because He wants to get it into YOUR head ... salvation is solely by the will of God

We are born again "not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God" But you say it was your will.

 

[brightfame52]

Unconditional Justification !

What means this saying ? Its Justification by Grace !

That's what the scripture teaches right here Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Notice Justified FREELY BY HIS GRACE !

Now that word freely is the greek word dórean and means:

as a free gift, without payment, freely.

something freely done (as gratis), i.e. without "cause"; unearned (undeserved); freely given (without cost) hence not done out of mere obligation or compulsion.


Notice its something done without cause. The cause cant be ones Faith or Repentance, that would overthrow Grace, because Paul says of Grace Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul informs of the cause of Justification by Grace, its totally outside the sinner being Justified, its through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, which simply means by His Death, Heb 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Every man here has been freely Justified by Grace through the redemption that is in Jesus and that unconditionally ! 24

 

[brightfame52]

... nope ... Scripture tells us when God justifies a person:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ





Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

We know that before the foundation of the world, the plan of redemption was put in place because God, in His omniscience, knew that Adam and Eve would sin.

We also know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Elect of God.

From John 3:16, we learn that WHOSEOVER believeth in Him has everlasting life.

God chose faith IN the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Elect of God ... that is what is chosen before the foundation of the world. WHOSOEVER believeth.

Under your rendering, God "chose" Johnny but not Mary, as if eenie-meenie-miney-mo, Johnny yes, Mary no. That is not God's plan.

Those who reject? God provided to them all that is needed to come to faith, but because they reject the Elect, God has chosen to not choose those who reject.





... just more of your "born again in order to be born again" dogma.

no one is "in Christ before he believed!" ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


There is only one offering that covers the sin of mankind ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

If one rejects the Lord Jesus Christ, he or she condemns him/herself because he/she did not believe in the One Whom God sent to be the propitiation for sin.
.

Unbelief proven

 

[brightfame52]

ripping a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

Let's look at Galatians 3:13 in context

Galatians 3:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


vs 10 – if you start reading in vs 1, you see that some in the church at Galatia had been led away from the truth of Scripture ... see vss 2-3 (Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ... having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?) ... they were being taught that they had to follow the law in order to be justified. Verse 10 points out that if justification comes by the works of the law, then you have to continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

vs 11 – no man is justified by the law in the sight of God ... The just shall live by faith ... not from works to faith or from faith to works ... from faith to faith. The life of the born again one begins in faith and the born again one is to continue to live by faith alone.

vs 12 – the law is not of faith ... I know you believe this so no issue.

vs 13 – all descendants of Adam are (or were) under the curse of the law because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23; Rom 5:12). The Lord Jesus Christ, in His immeasurable love for all mankind, was made a curse for us when He was crucified. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ remain under the curse of the law and will receive the consequence.

vs 14 – That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The whole point of this section is that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ... not the works of the law. And nowhere in this section are we taught that the promise of the Spirit is received by a person before they believe, notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary.





nope ... your erroneous dogma wholly ignores the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed a verse.

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

Because you ignore context, the content of your erroneous dogma is filled with your eisegesis.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

More unbelief of the fact that them whom Christ died for were redeemed from the curse of the law solely by His death for them.

 

[brightfame52]

Here is the verse in the Greek:

SBL Greek New Testament 2010
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.


Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις


See the word ἡ ?

That is the definite article "the".


The ISV correctly renders 2 These 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

Here is the verse from the NLT: Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.

The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith.
.

More unbelief of the fact that all men have not faith as stated in 2 Thess 3:2

 

[brightfame52]

Two ways elect sinners are Justified before God before they believe or have Faith. 1. By Christ being made a Surety for them Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Heb 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

The simple fact that Christ was made a Surety Justified the Elect before God. And again they were Justified by the Substitutionary death of Christ upon the tree. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He was raised again because of the Justification of them He was delivered for, many of whom had not yet believed. 24

 

[Evmur]

How far outside the scriptures will you go? if you wish to continue on in purely fleshly arguments how is it that until the gospel reached Europe not one single person believed and got saved? the same is true of Africa, China and the Red Indians.

Faith cometh

That means it wasn't there before.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The fact is God reveals Himself to some and hides Himself to others. At present He is by and large hidden from Jewish people, why? because He has purposed it so.

When Moses lifted up the serpent upon the pole whoever looked would be healed EVERYONE who simply looked. But the British couldn't look could they? Anakim couldn't look, the Egyptians. The promise was made to the Jews only.

God works this way because He wants to get it into YOUR head ... salvation is solely by the will of God

We are born again "not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God" But you say it was your will.

Now I have a quarrel to make with Calvin when I say this for Calvin makes this an argument for excluding people from grace with his predestiny unto damnation.

That is not what the bible says

The bible says God has consigned all men under sin so that He may have MERCY upon all men.

I have heard preachers who make an argument for the WIDER MERCY that is to say a great many more people will be saved than is currently supposed by evangelical Christians. But they flounder in their argument and usually get panned, roundly condemned on all sides. Even men like Billy Graham [of late blest memory] they come unstuck because they base their arguments upon gut feelings.

Hands up all Christians who are uneasy with preaching the doctrines concerning eternal punishment. In their guts Christians feel something is wrong, in their guts they feel surely God is more merciful than this. AND THEY ARE RIGHT.

You have to the find the scriptures that show the overwhelming majority of mankind will not spend eternity in hell fire ... those scriptures are there. And it is long, long after the time that theologians got their heads around this theology.

The doctrines concerning eternal things, the last judgement etc currently held and preached by evangelicals and have been believed and preached since the days of the "Fathers" is simply wrong. Based upon their mistranslations and wrong doctrines formed upon their misunderstandings and carried down through the centuries and not corrected by the reformation.

The Reformation took the church back to the "fathers" it did not take the church back to the apostles.

I am not saying there is no eternal punishment, I believe in eternal punishment.

I can PROVE from scripture that parables like the 10 maidens and the sheep and the goats parable have been wrongly translated and that the doctrines concerning eternal matters, the last judgement as currently understood by evangelicals is wrong.

The overwhelming majority of human souls will not rot in hell.