There will be no Rapture!!!
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Friend, the Biblical fact is that Israel FIRST repents of their sin of unbelief and calls out to their Messiah to save them.
THEN and only then does he Return. To destroy the AC (the greater Goliath, head wound and all) and his armies, bring the sons of Jacob back into their land one by one by the angels, judge the nations, renew the earth and build His temple in Jerusalem. Oh yes, and resurrect the OT saints.
Hos 3:4
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5
Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Hos 5:14
For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
THEN and only then does he Return. To destroy the AC (the greater Goliath, head wound and all) and his armies, bring the sons of Jacob back into their land one by one by the angels, judge the nations, renew the earth and build His temple in Jerusalem. Oh yes, and resurrect the OT saints.
Hos 3:4
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5
Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Hos 5:14
For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
please note that the word for "destruction" in this verse doesn't mean what you've put ^ .
That's what the "destruction" word in Lk17:27,29 ("and DESTROYED them ALL") refers to, which is a DIFFERENT Greek word.
Look up 1Tim6:9 where the word (as used also in the verse under present discussion, in 1Th5:3), is translated there as "ruin" (G3639 - olethros ), carrying the meaning:
[quoting]
"3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." "
[end quoting from BibleHub]
In other words, someone doesn't have to suddenly "drop dead" in order for this "destruction" to be true of them (they can still exist on the earth, experiencing "ruin" and "a complete undoing"); unlike what the text in Lk17:27,29 speaks to (which IS at His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology: "and destroyed them ALL"<--This doesn't happen at the ARRIVAL of the Trib period / INITIAL "birth PANG"--1Th5:1-3--at the START of the 7-yr period, i.e. SEAL #1... but "ruin" certainly commences then!)
That's what the "destruction" word in Lk17:27,29 ("and DESTROYED them ALL") refers to, which is a DIFFERENT Greek word.
Look up 1Tim6:9 where the word (as used also in the verse under present discussion, in 1Th5:3), is translated there as "ruin" (G3639 - olethros ), carrying the meaning:
[quoting]
"3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." "
[end quoting from BibleHub]
In other words, someone doesn't have to suddenly "drop dead" in order for this "destruction" to be true of them (they can still exist on the earth, experiencing "ruin" and "a complete undoing"); unlike what the text in Lk17:27,29 speaks to (which IS at His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology: "and destroyed them ALL"<--This doesn't happen at the ARRIVAL of the Trib period / INITIAL "birth PANG"--1Th5:1-3--at the START of the 7-yr period, i.e. SEAL #1... but "ruin" certainly commences then!)
He comes "as a thief" to the unwary. It is the DOTL that comes as a "thief in the night".
Every post-tribber on every thread makes that same error. Every single time without exception.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
TOOLS
Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
No, but the "olethros" comes at the beginning of birth pangs aka the first seal. 7 long years before the SC.
1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction G3639 cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; (birth pangs! seals!) and they shall not escape.
ὄλεθρος ólethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary ὄλλυμι óllymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:
Every post-tribber on every thread makes that same error. Every single time without exception.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
TOOLS
Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
No, but the "olethros" comes at the beginning of birth pangs aka the first seal. 7 long years before the SC.
1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction G3639 cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; (birth pangs! seals!) and they shall not escape.
ὄλεθρος ólethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary ὄλλυμι óllymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:
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It seems to me that you are thinking that the phrase "[when He comes] to be glorified in the saints of Him" MEANS "[when He comes] TO GLORIFY the saints of Him". It doesn't mean that.
That's the first issue (of this latest post of yours).
Secondly, the "WHEN [G3752 - hotan - "at the time when the condition is met," i.e. "whenever He comes to..."] which starts verse 10, is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19). That's when the VERSE 9 INFO will take place (with its "FUTURE TENSE 'SHALL'"---->everlasting punishment AWAY-FROM... ONLY "at the time when the condition is met" i.e. at His Second Coming to the earth [WHEN He will send unbelievers YOU-KNOW-WHERE!
;
This is when "He comes TO BE GLORIFIED IN the saints of Him" [again, this is NOT saying "TO GLORIFY the saints of Him"... NO]... "and TO BE MARVELED AT in all those having believed" [in the Trib yrs] "BECAUSE 'the testimony of us to you' was believed [by those ppl--not speaking here of the Thessalonians , nor us] IN THAT DAY [i.e. IN the TRIB yrs]"; This is the CONTRASTING "belief" from that of the other bracketed side, found in 2Th2:10-12, those who will "believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI").
The "WHEN [G3752]" of this verse 10 only refers back to the "FUTURE TENSE [(who) 'SHALL']" things of verse 9 (at His Second Coming to the earth); NOT to the matters being spoken of in verse 7 (Tribulation Period JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--which time-period PRECEDES His Second Coming to the earth)!
There is NO word "WHEN" in verse 7; and verse 10's "WHEN" speaks only of that which v.9 spoke to (which is "FUTURE TENSE" to the vv.7-8 things).
That's the first issue (of this latest post of yours).
Secondly, the "WHEN [G3752 - hotan - "at the time when the condition is met," i.e. "whenever He comes to..."] which starts verse 10, is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19). That's when the VERSE 9 INFO will take place (with its "FUTURE TENSE 'SHALL'"---->everlasting punishment AWAY-FROM... ONLY "at the time when the condition is met" i.e. at His Second Coming to the earth [WHEN He will send unbelievers YOU-KNOW-WHERE!
;This is when "He comes TO BE GLORIFIED IN the saints of Him" [again, this is NOT saying "TO GLORIFY the saints of Him"... NO]... "and TO BE MARVELED AT in all those having believed" [in the Trib yrs] "BECAUSE 'the testimony of us to you' was believed [by those ppl--not speaking here of the Thessalonians , nor us] IN THAT DAY [i.e. IN the TRIB yrs]"; This is the CONTRASTING "belief" from that of the other bracketed side, found in 2Th2:10-12, those who will "believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI").
The "WHEN [G3752]" of this verse 10 only refers back to the "FUTURE TENSE [(who) 'SHALL']" things of verse 9 (at His Second Coming to the earth); NOT to the matters being spoken of in verse 7 (Tribulation Period JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--which time-period PRECEDES His Second Coming to the earth)!
There is NO word "WHEN" in verse 7; and verse 10's "WHEN" speaks only of that which v.9 spoke to (which is "FUTURE TENSE" to the vv.7-8 things).
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Exactly. A nuance not perceived by most.
Did you not address this point already to @presidente ?
At least a dozen times? I mean......I lost count. But it has been a lot of misses.
2Th 1:10
when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;
Did you not address this point already to @presidente ?
At least a dozen times? I mean......I lost count. But it has been a lot of misses.
2Th 1:10
when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;
Of course Jesus comes as a thief in the night, no one is denying this. On the other hand the Apostle Paul said this at 1 Thessalonians 5:4, "But you, brethren are NOT in darkness that THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU like a thief in the night." Now why is that cv5? The next vs5 explains it. "for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness."
Now, I'm going to say something that has to do with 1 Thess 5:9 where it says "God has not destined us for wrath." Personally, I don't believe this is referring to the rapture of Christians escaping Gods wrath. To me it has everything to do with God's wrath on the unbelievers. Romans 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
And Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Also at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven , whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Finally, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED, with the result that they always fill up the MEASURE OF SINS. But wrath has come to them to the utmost." Vs19, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exaltation? Is it now even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING.?" I just do not see any rapture/deliverance before the tribulation.
IN GOD THE SON
bluto
Now, I'm going to say something that has to do with 1 Thess 5:9 where it says "God has not destined us for wrath." Personally, I don't believe this is referring to the rapture of Christians escaping Gods wrath. To me it has everything to do with God's wrath on the unbelievers. Romans 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
And Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Also at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven , whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Finally, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED, with the result that they always fill up the MEASURE OF SINS. But wrath has come to them to the utmost." Vs19, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exaltation? Is it now even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING.?" I just do not see any rapture/deliverance before the tribulation.
IN GOD THE SON
bluto
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Greetings brother.
The short and easy answer: it is "implied" (not explicitly stated, but deduced) that the Thessalonians thought that they had "missed the rapture" and were in the middle of the DOTL.
They were given false intel (a bogus letter) that undermined their faith in the earlier teaching of Paul.
Paul corrects the error and reinforces the fact that they will NOT see the DOTL. Nor the AC.
2Th 2:5
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Gotta run.......
The short and easy answer: it is "implied" (not explicitly stated, but deduced) that the Thessalonians thought that they had "missed the rapture" and were in the middle of the DOTL.
They were given false intel (a bogus letter) that undermined their faith in the earlier teaching of Paul.
Paul corrects the error and reinforces the fact that they will NOT see the DOTL. Nor the AC.
2Th 2:5
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Gotta run.......
No. Wrong. Did you even read the post?????
He (JESUS) comes "as a thief" to the unwary. It is the DOTL that comes as a "thief in the night".
Every post-tribber on every thread makes that same error. Every single time without exception.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
TOOLS
Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
He (JESUS) comes "as a thief" to the unwary. It is the DOTL that comes as a "thief in the night".
Every post-tribber on every thread makes that same error. Every single time without exception.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
TOOLS
Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
? "sons of of light and day" go through the UNbelievers' "Day Of Darkness"?:
Day of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!
According To the preaching of JESUS CHRIST, In The Revelation
Of The Mystery! (Romans - Philemon!), "The Day Of CHRIST!" =
The "Judgment Day" Of The Heavenly Body Of CHRIST,
who Will Be Taken Home To Heaven { LIGHT! }, For "shame... and/or:
...rewards, rejoicing, And reigning!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) Amen?:
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit
or by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day Of CHRIST is at
hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2)
“Who Shall Confirm you Unto the end, that ye may be blameless
In The Day Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" (1 Corinthians 1:8)
“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(1 Corinthians 5:5)
“As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing,
even as ye also are ours in the In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(2 Corinthians 1:14)
“Being confident Of This Very Thing, That HE Which Hath Begun A
Good Work In you, Will Perform It Until The Day Of JESUS CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:6)
“That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye
may be sincere and without offence till The Day Of CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:10)
“Holding forth The WORD Of Life; that I may rejoice in
The Day Of CHRIST that I have not run in vain, neither
laboured in vain." (Philippians 2:16)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!"(online):
According To Law / Covenants and "Prophecy!":
The Day Of The LORD / "earthly" Israel / nations! in judgment /
wrath / battle / destruction / terror / DARKNESS / horror / pain! =
--------------------- Time Of JACOB's Trouble!!:
“The Day Of The LORD!” is common throughout the Old Testament.
The prophets referred constantly to it. In the New Testament,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Paul, and Peter referred to It! Some of
the Many Passages are the following:
Isaiah 2:11-12, 17, 13:4-6, 9, 13, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3;
Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7, 14;
Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Matthew 24:1-51; Acts 2:20; Romans 2:5;
1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 1:10;
compare: "That Day" in Isaiah 2:11, 17, 20, 3:18.
"That Day" is a time of terror, darkness, and wrath. It is a
“day of visitation” (Isaiah 10:3), a “Day of the Wrath Of
The LORD!” (Ezekiel 7:19), THE “Great Day Of The LORD!”
(Zephaniah 1:14)
-------------
Finally, there is Also: "The Day Of God!":
"Looking for and hasting unto The Coming Of The Day Of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:12)
---------
Conclusion, only one question: Should God's "children of Light"
(Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) In The Body Of CHRIST,
Really prefer Darkness Over LIGHT?
Thus, we believe, with Paul, that our Departure To Glory
Imminent (Could happen At Any Moment, No signs required)!
---------
Again, God Admonishes All diligent Bible students:
"Prove All things; hold fast that which is good!"
Amen.
Day of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!
According To the preaching of JESUS CHRIST, In The Revelation
Of The Mystery! (Romans - Philemon!), "The Day Of CHRIST!" =
The "Judgment Day" Of The Heavenly Body Of CHRIST,
who Will Be Taken Home To Heaven { LIGHT! }, For "shame... and/or:
...rewards, rejoicing, And reigning!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) Amen?:
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit
or by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day Of CHRIST is at
hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2)
“Who Shall Confirm you Unto the end, that ye may be blameless
In The Day Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" (1 Corinthians 1:8)
“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(1 Corinthians 5:5)
“As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing,
even as ye also are ours in the In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(2 Corinthians 1:14)
“Being confident Of This Very Thing, That HE Which Hath Begun A
Good Work In you, Will Perform It Until The Day Of JESUS CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:6)
“That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye
may be sincere and without offence till The Day Of CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:10)
“Holding forth The WORD Of Life; that I may rejoice in
The Day Of CHRIST that I have not run in vain, neither
laboured in vain." (Philippians 2:16)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!"(online):
According To Law / Covenants and "Prophecy!":
The Day Of The LORD / "earthly" Israel / nations! in judgment /
wrath / battle / destruction / terror / DARKNESS / horror / pain! =
--------------------- Time Of JACOB's Trouble!!:
“The Day Of The LORD!” is common throughout the Old Testament.
The prophets referred constantly to it. In the New Testament,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Paul, and Peter referred to It! Some of
the Many Passages are the following:
Isaiah 2:11-12, 17, 13:4-6, 9, 13, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3;
Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7, 14;
Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Matthew 24:1-51; Acts 2:20; Romans 2:5;
1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 1:10;
compare: "That Day" in Isaiah 2:11, 17, 20, 3:18.
"That Day" is a time of terror, darkness, and wrath. It is a
“day of visitation” (Isaiah 10:3), a “Day of the Wrath Of
The LORD!” (Ezekiel 7:19), THE “Great Day Of The LORD!”
(Zephaniah 1:14)
-------------
Finally, there is Also: "The Day Of God!":
"Looking for and hasting unto The Coming Of The Day Of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:12)
---------
Conclusion, only one question: Should God's "children of Light"
(Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) In The Body Of CHRIST,
Really prefer Darkness Over LIGHT?
Thus, we believe, with Paul, that our Departure To Glory
Imminent (Could happen At Any Moment, No signs required)!
---------
Again, God Admonishes All diligent Bible students:
"Prove All things; hold fast that which is good!"
Amen.
The land usually represents Israel and the sea the Gentiles. No more sea might represent no more Greek or Jew but the new man in Christ. The new heavens could be that Jesus in presenting His blood in heaven to cleanse heaven, making it new. The new earth is the one now controlled by Christ where He is building His church and the powers of hell are defenseless against His assault.
It's ongoing.
There is a biblical principle of gradualism. God promised a Messiah in Genesis 3. It was 4000 years before it came to fulfillment. But all of history was building to it.
Since the cross, Jesus has been building His kingdom. There are more Christians today than ever before. He will continue to build the church until it is a great majority. He will thereby fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD. It's a work in progress.
There is a biblical principle of gradualism. God promised a Messiah in Genesis 3. It was 4000 years before it came to fulfillment. But all of history was building to it.
Since the cross, Jesus has been building His kingdom. There are more Christians today than ever before. He will continue to build the church until it is a great majority. He will thereby fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD. It's a work in progress.
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