Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2023

John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

In regards to Judas being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' By Jesus choosing Judas, that does not mean that Judas was saved and Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus and Jesus knew it from the beginning. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

In other words

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 3, 2023

ResidentAlien said:

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

So is Hebrews

Back in '89, Robert Shank was commissioned to produce a scholarly presentation of OSAS for the Baptist denomination. The result was "Life in the Son" which went in exactly the opposite direction, opposing the OSAS Concept. I found it to be readable, and his arguments to be sound in my opinion. He addresses the Hebrews 6:4 issue nicely.

My conclusion, then became that a Christian is NOT as "secure" as the OSAS (Calvinist reformed) folks claim, but much More Secure than the "One strike and you're OUT" theologies of the Arminian theologians.

cv5 · Sep 3, 2023

Bob-Carabbio said:

Calvinist and Arminianism both strike out.

Free Will Is Existence! | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)
Irresistible Grace/Determinism | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)

Hebrew 6 & 10.....the worst exegeted chapters in all the Bible....

Can You Lose Christ? | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)
Choosing And Loosing? How? | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)
Consciousness and Time | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)

brightfame52 · Sep 3, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

Yes he did, all who had faith in the OT like He 11 people of faith, had the Spirit of God in them, they were born of the Spirit because Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, they were Sheep of Christ

Aussie52 · Sep 3, 2023

Bob-Carabbio said:

Bob,
I think you do Arminian theologians a disservice. Most I know believe that one loses their salvation after a protracted period of time rejecting the Christian Faith, not over a once only sin.
Robert Shank's book 'Life In The Son" is a real jewel.

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 3, 2023

Aussie52 said:

In the old Assembly of God (before the '70s) one SIN that wasn't "Under the blood" would eliminate your salvation. They're not that legalistic anymore, but back then AG people put a lot of effort into "staying saved".

It was valuable for me. His next book: "Elect in the Son" was almost unreadable - way too much theological jargon.

Aussie52 · Sep 3, 2023

Bob-Carabbio said:

Yes, I had trouble wading through "Elect In The Son". A bit dense.

mailmandan · Sep 5, 2023

cv5 said:

I often hear works-salvationists cite John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

rogerg · Sep 5, 2023

mailmandan said:

No one is able to have true belief in Christ unless given them as a gift of God. That belief is by/from Christ's faith through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is only to those born again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

TheLearner · Sep 5, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

Luke 1:17
John himself will go ahead of the Lord and make people ready for his coming. He will be powerful like Elijah and will have the same spirit. He will make peace between fathers and their children. He will cause people who are not obeying God to change and start thinking the way they should.”

2 Kings 2

Easy-to-Read Version

The Lord Makes Plans to Take Elijah
2 It was near the time for the Lord to take Elijah by a whirlwind up into heaven. Elijah and Elisha started to leave Gilgal.
2 Elijah said to Elisha, “Please stay here, because the Lord told me to go to Bethel.”
But Elisha said, “I promise, as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you.” So the two men went down to Bethel.
3 The group of prophets[a] at Bethel came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take your master away from you today?”
Elisha said, “Yes, I know. Don’t talk about it.”
4 Elijah said to Elisha, “Please stay here, because the Lord told me to go to Jericho.”
But Elisha said, “I promise, as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you!” So the two men went to Jericho.
5 The group of prophets at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take your master away from you today?”
Elisha answered, “Yes, I know. Don’t talk about it.”
6 Elijah said to Elisha, “Please stay here, because the Lord told me to go to the Jordan River.”
Elisha answered, “I promise, as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you!” So the two men went on.
7 There were 50 men from the group of prophets who followed them. Elijah and Elisha stopped at the Jordan River. The 50 men stood far away from Elijah and Elisha. 8 Elijah took off his coat, folded it, and hit the water with it. The water separated to the right and to the left. Then Elijah and Elisha crossed the river on dry ground.
9 After they crossed the river, Elijah said to Elisha, “What do you want me to do for you before God takes me away from you?”
Elisha said, “I ask you for a double share of your spirit on me.”
10 Elijah said, “You have asked a hard thing. If you see me when I am taken from you, it will happen. But if you don’t see me when I am taken from you, it will not happen.”
The Lord Takes Elijah Into Heaven
11 Elijah and Elisha were walking and talking together. Suddenly, some horses and a chariot came and separated Elijah from Elisha. The horses and the chariot were like fire. Then Elijah was carried up into heaven in a whirlwind.
12 Elisha saw it, and shouted, “My father! My father! The chariot of Israel and his horses!”
Elisha never saw Elijah again. Elisha grabbed his own clothes and tore them in two to show his sadness. 13 Elijah’s coat had fallen to the ground, so Elisha picked it up. He went back and stood at the edge of the Jordan River. 14 He hit the water and said, “Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” Just as Elisha hit the water, the water separated to the right and to the left! Then Elisha crossed the river.
The Prophets Ask for Elijah
15 When the group of prophets at Jericho saw Elisha, they said, “Elijah’s spirit is now on Elisha!” They came to meet Elisha. They bowed very low to the ground before him. 16 They said, “Look, we have 50 good men. Please let them go and look for your master. Maybe the Lord’s Spirit has taken Elijah up and dropped him on some mountain or in some valley.”
But Elisha answered, “No, don’t send men to look for Elijah!”
17 The group of prophets begged Elisha until he was embarrassed. Then Elisha said, “Send the men to look for Elijah.”
The group of prophets sent the 50 men to look for Elijah. They looked three days, but they could not find him. 18 So the men went to Jericho where Elisha was staying and told him. Elisha said to them, “I told you not to go.”
Elisha Makes the Water Good
19 The men of the city said to Elisha, “Sir, you can see this city is in a nice place, but the water is bad. That is why the land cannot grow crops.”
20 Elisha said, “Bring me a new bowl and put salt in it.”
They brought the bowl to Elisha. 21 Then he went out to the place where the water began flowing from the ground. Elisha threw the salt into the water and said, “The Lord said, ‘I am making this water pure! From now on this water will not cause any more death or keep the land from growing crops.’”
22 The water became pure and is still good today. It happened just as Elisha had said.
Some Boys Make Fun of Elisha
23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!”
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the Lord to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.
25 Elisha left Bethel and went to Mount Carmel and from there he went back to Samaria.

TheLearner · Sep 5, 2023

Galatians 3:14
Because of what Jesus Christ did, the blessing God promised to Abraham was given to all people. Christ died so that by believing in him we could have the Spirit that God promised.

Galatians 4:29
But the other son of Abraham, who was born in the normal way, caused trouble for the one who was born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same today.

"

Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God[3] that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
Gideon is able to deliver Israel because "the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon" (Judges 6:34), as well as upon other judges (Judges 3:10; 11:29).
Sampson performs feats of strength when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him (Judges 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).
Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29; Luke 2:25).

The Spirit upon Saul (1 Samuel 10)
...
The Spirit on David (1 Samuel 16)
...
The Spirit on Moses
The Spirit of God also rests on Moses (Numbers 11:16-17, 25).
...
The Spirit upon the 70 Elders (Numbers 11:16-17, 25)
...

Mary, Jesus' mother -- "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you..." (Luke 1:35).
Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother (Luke 1:41).
Zechariah, John the Baptist's father (Luke 1:67).
John the Baptist himself (Luke 1:15), who is "filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth" (Luke 1:15).
Simeon (Luke 2:25-27).
Anna (Luke 2:36-38).

...

Were the Old Testament Believers Indwelt by the Spirit?
This raises some questions that we struggle to answer. For example, how could people even believe without the Holy Spirit helping them? Some theologians have even gone so far as to suggest that the Holy Spirit indwelt all Old Testament believers and they were born again or regenerated.[5] It's clear to me, however, that the New Birth of the Spirit had not been experienced by devout people in the Old Covenant, people like Nicodemus, even though I have no doubt that the Spirit aided and helped Old Testament believers as they sought after God."
https://www.jesuswalk.com/spirit/01_spirit_ot.htm

TheLearner · Sep 5, 2023

https://bible.org/seriespage/3-work-holy-spirit-old-testament

short answer: maybe

TheLearner · Sep 5, 2023

John 20:22
Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Judas was not there when his disciples were indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

mailmandan · Sep 9, 2023

notmyown said:

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love.

So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

notmyown · Sep 9, 2023

mailmandan said:

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love.

So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

thank you, Dan!
i've always been grateful the Lord said He hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans.

weren't all the churches addressed in modern day Turkey?

Lamar · Sep 9, 2023

Cameron143 said:

There is no verbiage in those verses that states your assertion: "means their natures were never changed."
Hence your assertion is simply conjecture. Nothing more.
If Peter wanted to state such an important assertion he could have simply wrote it that way. No need for us to surmise it.

Cameron143 said:

Again, you are simply surmising this assertion. Can you at least admit this is not in the text?
If Peter is claiming that these people who returned to their vomit were never saved he would have simply stated it. No need for the reader to read between the lines.

Cameron143 said:

Once again, there is no need to waste ink "warning the Brethren" about something that cannot happen. If wolves cannot destroy you why worry?

Peter is speaking of two states of existence, knowing the way that was handed to you and turning away from that given hand.

This is the verse:
"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them"

They did "know the way of righteousness" not never knew the way of righteousness.
They "held the holy commandment" not never held the holy commandment.

You will not accept this because of your OSAS theology but it is clearly there. No surmising necessary.

LightOfMyLife · Sep 9, 2023

When we accept Jesus as our Savior, we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. We are sealed until the day of redemption.

Lamar · Sep 9, 2023

brightfame52 said:

You begin your reply with a pronoun?

I would like to give you a proper response but what is "it"?

Cameron143 · Sep 9, 2023

Lamar said:

I'm not assuming anything. Both the pig and dog returned to their former ways. This is evidence that all things did not become new to them.
The church is full of people who have associated themselves with God but do not truly know Him. Some fall away quickly; others after an extended period of time. The parable of the sower teaches this. While at church, they will learn the commandments and of righteousness. But in the end they reject them and return to their former ways. Their former ways would no longer exist for them if all things had become new for them.

rogerg · Sep 9, 2023

LightOfMyLife said:

After we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, through that, we come to know Jesus Christ as Saviour.

Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member