There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wow just 24 in the raptured church!

Look at what the "24 ELDERS" are saying in Rev5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"


Now, it is either as you suggest, that there are only "24" NATIONS, and TONGUES, and PEOPLE, and KINDRED;

OR, consider that these "ELDERS" (on "thrones") are speaking on behalf of the greater/wider body [of people] being referenced (out of / from "EVERY" nation, tongue, etc--of which there is MORE than merely "24" ), like "elders" in your church likely do, on occasion, do they not?

 

[selahsays]

Hey buddy. So you are now the board resurrection expert supposedly?

So then, tell us all about how many times the anti-christ is resurrected. And when. And which one gets the FINAL Genesis 3:15 treatment.

Then go on to explain the two witnesses, who they are, and their resurrection phenomenon as it relates to their appearance and ministry.

And then how all of this fits into your "only one resurrection" theory.

Hello, brother… but when it says “first” resurrection, this means that this particular resurrection is to immortality (eternal life).

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @selahsays , do you believe the "2 Witnesses" (after they died / are killed in Rev11:7-9), once they are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven (in the "6th Seal / 2nd Woe" events point in the chronology), per vv.11-12, that they will have to "die AGAIN" (after having "ascended up to Heaven"), like, at some future point in time? Like, they have to come back to the earth to "experience the Vials" and DIE (again) during those, or something?

Just trying to ascertain your viewpoint. Thanks.

 

[selahsays]

^ @selahsays , do you believe the "2 Witnesses" (after they died / are killed in Rev11:7-9), once they are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven (in the "6th Seal / 2nd Woe" events point in the chronology), per vv.11-12, that they will have to "die AGAIN" (after having "ascended up to Heaven"), like, at some future point in time? Like, they have to come back to the earth to "experience the Vials" and DIE (again) during those, or something?

Just trying to ascertain your viewpoint. Thanks.

No, I don’t believe so. Actually, there won’t be enough time! The seventh trump is about to sound! Jesus will return and everyone will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to their spiritual bodies as per 1 Cor. 15:52.

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

- Revelation 11:1-15 (KJV)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @selahsays ,

Thank you for your response.

I asked because some time back, another poster (who was making a similar point to the one you made in your post) argued that they think they probably will die again because they don't have glorified bodies when they ascend, just resurrected back to ordinary bodies like Lazarus and so forth (as was the poster's reasoning).

So, if your viewpoint doesn't see them having to die again, and they are resurrected and ascend up to Heaven at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology (prior to the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" [and Vials], per vv.12-15a), how does your viewpoint explain that these "2W" are resurrected PRIOR TO "the resurrection the first [adj]" (Rev20:5,6), when, according to y'all's view ( ), Rev20 is "the first time anyone will be resurrected [and ALL saints AT THE SAME TIME are included at this "first[-in-time]" resurrection]," according to the way you're interpreting the phrases in those two verses?

Are they considered "first-first resurrection," or what, in your view? Just wondering, and would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks!






[Do they get special treatment, for some reason?? ]

 

[ewq1938]

Are they considered "first first resurrection," or what, in your view? Just wondering, and would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

I think in most theological views that these two people resurrect and are raptured before the larger groups of the resurrected dead and raptured saints are resurrected and raptured.

Either they are resurrected as mortals and are changed like the raptured ones are, or they are resurrected as immortals ahead of the larger group who that same day will resurrect as immortals as well.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think in most theological views that these two people resurrect and are raptured before the larger groups of the resurrected dead and raptured saints are resurrected and raptured.

Either they are resurrected as mortals and are changed like the raptured ones are, or they are resurrected as immortals ahead of the larger group who that same day will resurrect as immortals as well.

So, what I think I hear you saying, is that "the 2 Witnesses" are neither...

--"the dead in Christ" which shall "rise FIRST" [rise means "be resurrected from the dead" here, b/f the "caught up together with" thing];

nor...

--the "we which are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO..." [coz they died / are killed beforehand]


... they fit into neither description.


So, why don't they "fit" into either of these categories? Especially since the word "FIRST" is used here too ("shall rise FIRST"); and the only other option being "[we which are] ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO the coming of the Lord"... no middle ground for anyone, according to the ones being adamant about "FIRST-IN-TIME resurrection" (Rev20) being ONLY ONE / ONLY ONCE!!!






Anyone care to explain?? ( maybe @DRobinson ??)

 

[DRobinson]

Look at what the "24 ELDERS" are saying in Rev5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"


Now, it is either as you suggest, that there are only "24" NATIONS, and TONGUES, and PEOPLE, and KINDRED;

OR, consider that these "ELDERS" (on "thrones") are speaking on behalf of the greater/wider body [of people] being referenced (out of / from "EVERY" nation, tongue, etc--of which there is MORE than merely "24" ), like "elders" in your church likely do, on occasion, do they not?

You can spin as you like to fit your belief but I will accept it as stated.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @DRobinson ,

Okay, I can only assume you mean that "24 elders" came out of EVERY nation because those 24 individuals did a LOT of moving during their lives on earth, so as to have been redeemed out of ALL OF them... and had to have been VERY, VERY multilingual, etc...


Makes perfect sense.






[by the way, let the readers compare this passage in chpt 5 with the wording in 1:6-7]

 

[selahsays]

^ @selahsays ,

Thank you for your response.

I asked because some time back, another poster (who was making a similar point to the one you made in your post) argued that they think they probably will die again because they don't have glorified bodies when they ascend, just resurrected back to ordinary bodies like Lazarus and so forth (as was the poster's reasoning).

So, if your viewpoint doesn't see them having to die again, and they are resurrected and ascend up to Heaven at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology (prior to the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" [and Vials], per vv.12-15a), how does your viewpoint explain that these "2W" are resurrected PRIOR TO "the resurrection the first [adj]" (Rev20:5,6), when, according to y'all's view ( ), Rev20 is "the first time anyone will be resurrected [and ALL saints AT THE SAME TIME are included at this "first[-in-time]" resurrection]," according to the way you're interpreting the phrases in those two verses?

Are they considered "first-first resurrection," or what, in your view? Just wondering, and would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks!






[Do they get special treatment, for some reason?? ]

No, my take is that no one partakes of the first resurrection to immortality until Jesus returns. So, the Two Witnesses will experience the first resurrection at the 7th trump. There is only one first resurrection to immortality. (my understanding)

Thanks for discussing. Thoughts?

 

[cv5]

Hello, brother… but when it says “first” resurrection, this means that this particular resurrection is to immortality (eternal life).

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection (each in their own ORDER/RANK) was not my question.
My question was how many times is the AC resurrected?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@selahsays ,

Well, the passage clearly spells out that they "ascended into heaven" (v.12) and THEN after that the declaration in v.14 states clearly "the second woe is past" (associated with the "6th Trumpet" events, per Rev8:13), "... and, behold, the third woe [associated with the "7th Trumpet" events] COMETH QUICKLY [i.e. had not yet happened... however, the 2W had already ascended up to heaven by that point]."


The text is clear, that the "2W" are resurrected and ascend into heaven when the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" is in effect or concluding, but PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet sounding [/events] / 3rd Woe," so at a point in time clearly DISTINCT from when many here are insisting "all saints" are resurrected at the time of: the 7th Trumpet (which they are labeling "the LAST" [in order to correspond to 1Cor15:52's "LAST trump"])

 

[selahsays]

The first resurrection (each in their own ORDER/RANK) was not my question.
My question was how many times is the AC resurrected?

Uhh… but…are bad angels resurrected?

 

[DRobinson]

^ @DRobinson ,

Okay, I can only assume you mean that "24 elders" came out of EVERY nation because those 24 individuals did a LOT of moving during their lives on earth, so as to have been redeemed out of ALL OF them... and had to have been VERY, VERY multilingual, etc...


Makes perfect sense.






[by the way, let the readers compare this passage in chpt 5 with the wording in 1:6-7]

Unlike you I assume nothing. I read and accept what is said,
We are told their number, their dress, and what they do.

 

[cv5]

Hello, brother… but when it says “first” resurrection, this means that this particular resurrection is to immortality (eternal life).

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are multiple phases and different populations WITHIN the "first resurrection".
Its just not as simple as you now think.

Corresponding exactly with what 1Cor15:23 says (re: resurrection):

"But EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in the own ORDER / RANK"

https://christianchat.com/threads/post-trib-rapture.209486/post-5011143
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...apture-doctrine-4.208914/page-23#post-5000201
https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-5000213

 

[cv5]

Uhh… but…are bad angels resurrected?

The resurrection of the AC is a high-level study. You need to first understand the complexities of the "first resurrection" at the very least.

But in a sense, they are related topics no doubt.

 

[Grace911]

Could these scriptures be a "first rapture" that happened at Yeshua/Jesus resurrection?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

[selahsays]

@selahsays ,

Well, the passage clearly spells out that they "ascended into heaven" (v.12) and THEN after that the declaration in v.14 states clearly "the second woe is past" (associated with the "6th Trumpet" events, per Rev8:13), "... and, behold, the third woe [associated with the "7th Trumpet" events] COMETH QUICKLY [i.e. had not yet happened... however, the 2W had already ascended up to heaven by that point]."


The text is clear, that the "2W" are resurrected and ascend into heaven when the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" is in effect or concluding, but PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet sounding [/events] / 3rd Woe," so at a point in time clearly DISTINCT from when many here are insisting "all saints" are resurrected at the time of: the 7th Trumpet (which they are labeling "the LAST")

But being ascended (or physical death—or those who have died and are in heaven right now) haven’t been granted any of the two resurrections (first or second) yet. Am I on the same page?

 

[Moses_Young]

Could these scriptures be a "first rapture" that happened at Yeshua/Jesus resurrection?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 rules it out.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Unlike you I assume nothing. I read and accept what is said,

Do you?

We are told their number, their dress, and what they do.

Speaking of "their dress," the text in Rev4:4 states,

"having been clothed in himatiois leukois"


Hmmm, where have we heard that phrase before (in Rev)... "himatiois leukois"?

Oh yes... in 3:5 where a promise had been made to the one who overcomes [i.e. believes on Christ], where it states,

"...the same SHALL BE [future tense] clothed in himatiois leukois" .




Now, who again does the text in Rev say is "having been clothed" in THESE "himatiois leukois"??? (hint again: right, Rev4:4!!)





"having been clothed in" these, IS the FULFILLMENT of the promise that they "SHALL BE clothed in" these!! AMEN!! (and these 4:4 persons are UP IN HEAVEN [court-room scene], and saying, "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY...". Again, "stephanous / crowns" are only to be awarded "IN THAT DAY"--not when the believer DIES)