10 BRIDEMAIDS
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You said: doing something that God doesn't want done, is not a sin until God says "Don't do this, or don’t do that;" And yet Romans 5:13 makes clear that sin was in the world before the law was given. Doesn't matter what law, because men were sinful with or without it.
John 1:14 + 17
Not necessarily, I don’t have to tell people not to eat raw chicken. Eventually after enough people get sick and die, the people will realize not to eat raw chicken. But why not tell them in advance?
You ask the most awesome questions!
You said: doing something that God doesn't want done, is not a sin until God says "Don't do this, or don’t do that;" And yet Romans 5:13 makes clear that sin was in the world before the law was given. Doesn't matter what law, because men were sinful with or without it.
John 1:14 + 17
Point taken, but we must establish when was the law given. There are two avenues to take here, which will then lead to two different perspectives of the same. So when do you believe the law was given to man?
- sin entered the world through Adam, Romans 5:12
- sin was in the world before the Law, Romans 5:13
- ergo Adam was before the Law
- the Law entered the world 430 years after the promise was made to Abraham, Galatians 3:17 ((to wit, at Sinai, just like Exodus records))
- ergo regarding Romans 5:13 -
- Paul is not saying Cain was given and/or was under the decalogue
- Paul is not saying God is unjustified to judge anyone before Moses
- Paul is explicitly excluding both such claims
i know it's a big block of text and I had to whittle it down to fit in the character limit for one post, but I encourage all of us discussing this to read Chrysostom's view on this. it represents some of the the best scholarship of the early church, and he neatly avoids any of these rabbit trails into presuming the Law came before Moses, which is rife with contradiction to the text of the Bible.
briefly, he sees Romans 5:13 as specifically a statement rebutting early, peculiarly Jewish arguments against the Christian faith and the Christian's dogmatic assertion that they were not under the Law.
the whole homily is easily found online by searching his name + homily 10 Romans, if you are interested.
this is one of the nicest things anyone has said about me
much love, and no offense meant even if i might sound like it sometimes
In Genesis 4, when God did not accept Cain's offering, He told him if he did well would it not be accepted? It seems God believed he knew what was right and what was wrong.
My panel says: the law was given through Moses (John 1:17). I gave it as part of my answer in an edit .
Indeed, I kinda like Chrysostom’s interpretation, and I believe Adam came before the law. However, I still need to know when you guys believe the law was introduced to man.
Ok, cool… Simple question, God said thou shalt not steal. Did this become law when God said it, or when Moses wrote it down.
Perhaps for free will, i suppose - that's what my pastor's answer is, and he taught me that by asking why God didn't warn Woman in advance about the Serpent? or why Adam didn't chain her to a tree or build a fence around the tree of knowledge of good from evil, or why God put those trees right where they were so easily accessible in the garden in the first place?
((he didn't answer any of those questions, just asked them))
just as for myself -
i believe righteousness is righteousness, Christ is the righteousness of God, and Christ is eternal - so there is no beginning or end to "murder and theft are sin" because these things fall short of the righteousness of God.
particularly, i would say Cain knew the offering he brought was wrong and murdering his brother was evil because he knew enough about the character of God to know these things are outside the character of God, and anything outside the character of God is sin.
God had made a sacrifice of blood to cover Adam and Woman, and God had promised them life rather than murder: Satan had effectively murdered Woman by his deception, and God had judged that, severely.
and i believe the Law was introduced in Exodus 20, sabbath ((as a ceremonial law)) in Exodus 16 - because that's the record of the text.
I believe God did warn Adam about the serpent, and by warning Adam, Eve was warned in the process.
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In my opinion… The serpent is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I believe there is much scripture proclaiming this.
given what post posted in post's previous post, and in light of Chrysostom, post would say God does not steal; therefore it is evident stealing is sin, with or without a law specifying that it is.
so in a technical sense it is only law when a law is given debarring it, such that for the one under that law, the sin of theft is made "all the more sinful" ((see what i did there)) by being both inherently sin and also transgression of that law, on top of the preexisting, inherent sinfulness of the theft.
thank God for grace, yes?
((!!!))
Forgive me if this is hard to understand, as it is hard for me to express.
The law was not given to Moses (bear with me) the law was given to Adam.
As soon as God tells you “not to do this” law is given. God told Adam not to eat…
Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery…. All laws.
When Adam (perhaps Eve) most focus on Adam, sinned; sin entered the world. Adam sinned.
So the question is how was sin in the world before Adam broke the law? Yes
Adam was not the first man.
Even so, Moses would have broken the tablets that Gods finger touched… But yet we still have the oracles… so when did these commandments become law? When God spoke them, or when God wrote them, or when Moses scripted them?
It is a very important and subtle point that Woman ((her name isn't Eve till later
)) sinned before Adam did, but scripture tells us sin entered the world through one man - indicating Adam.Paul says this because he knows the right interpretation of Genesis 3. it is fully deduced from what is written, not the revealing of a mystery.
Adam's sin is not like Woman's sin - he is not deceived.
it is written,
"The first man Adam became a living being."
(1 Corinthians 15:45)
