Jesus, before becoming a man

[williamjordan]

The "sons of Elohim" were there according to the Word, there we many beings there, not all of them were YHWH.

Job 38:4-7, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding. Who set its measurements, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it? Upon what were its foundations sunk? Or who laid its corner-stone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?”

Job 38:7, 7 בְּרָן־ H7442»sang יַ֭חַד H3162»together כּ֣וֹכְבֵי H3556»stars בֹ֑קֶר H1242»When the morning וַ֝יָּרִ֗יעוּ H7321»shouted כָּל־ H3605»and all בְּנֵ֥י H1121»and all the sons אֱלֹהִֽים׃ H430»of Elohim "

“sons of Elohim” is words #H1121 sons #H430 El

#H1121 - ben: son, Original Word: בֵּן, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: ben, Phonetic Spelling: (bane), Short Definition: sons

#H430 - elohim: God, god, Original Word: אֱלֹהִים, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: elohim, Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem'), Short Definition: God

Problem 2:
Each time the verb na-‘ă-śeh (Gen. 1:26, “Let Us make”) is used in the OT, it always has reference to a plurality of personal subjects who are always involved in the action. There are no exceptions (least Gen. 1:26–27 be the one exception). So then, why should Gen. 1:26 be the lone exception? Consider Ex. 19:8,

‘Then all the people answered together and said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do (na-‘ă-śeh)!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also trust in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.’ (Ex. 19:8)

Further examples of this include, but are not limited to, Ex. 24:3, 24:7; Numbers 32:31; Joshua 1:16, 9:20, 22:26.

 

[williamjordan]

The "sons of Elohim" were there according to the Word, there we many beings there, not all of them were YHWH.

Job 38:4-7, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding. Who set its measurements, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it? Upon what were its foundations sunk? Or who laid its corner-stone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?”

Job 38:7, 7 בְּרָן־ H7442»sang יַ֭חַד H3162»together כּ֣וֹכְבֵי H3556»stars בֹ֑קֶר H1242»When the morning וַ֝יָּרִ֗יעוּ H7321»shouted כָּל־ H3605»and all בְּנֵ֥י H1121»and all the sons אֱלֹהִֽים׃ H430»of Elohim "

“sons of Elohim” is words #H1121 sons #H430 El

#H1121 - ben: son, Original Word: בֵּן, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: ben, Phonetic Spelling: (bane), Short Definition: sons

#H430 - elohim: God, god, Original Word: אֱלֹהִים, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: elohim, Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem'), Short Definition: God

Problem 3:
Gen. 1:26 has historically been understood through the centuries to refer to a plurality of persons who were involved in the act of creation. Hence, through the second and third centuries, this was the most commonly held interpretation in the Christian world. To cite a few authors from that period,

Barnabas 6:12

‘For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, “Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beasts of the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea.” And the Lord said, on beholding the fair creature man, “Increase, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” These things were spoken to the Son.’ (Barnabas 6:12)
​

Irenaeus, Against Heresies

‘Now man is a mixed organization of soul and flesh, who was formed after the likeness of God, and moulded by His hands, that is, by the Son and Holy Spirit, to whom also He said, “Let Us make man.”’ (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 20:1 and Preface)[/QUOTE]
​

Tertullian, Against Marcion

‘Since then he is the image of the Creator (for He, when looking on Christ His Word, who was to become man, said, “Let Us make man in our own image, after our likeness”), how can I possibly have another head but Him whose image I am?’ (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book V)​

 

[williamjordan]

The "sons of Elohim" were there according to the Word, there we many beings there, not all of them were YHWH.

Job 38:4-7, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding. Who set its measurements, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it? Upon what were its foundations sunk? Or who laid its corner-stone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?”

Job 38:7, 7 בְּרָן־ H7442»sang יַ֭חַד H3162»together כּ֣וֹכְבֵי H3556»stars בֹ֑קֶר H1242»When the morning וַ֝יָּרִ֗יעוּ H7321»shouted כָּל־ H3605»and all בְּנֵ֥י H1121»and all the sons אֱלֹהִֽים׃ H430»of Elohim "

“sons of Elohim” is words #H1121 sons #H430 El

#H1121 - ben: son, Original Word: בֵּן, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: ben, Phonetic Spelling: (bane), Short Definition: sons

#H430 - elohim: God, god, Original Word: אֱלֹהִים, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: elohim, Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem'), Short Definition: God

Problem 4:
Piggy-backing off Gen. 1:26, imagery from the Genesis creation mandate permeates the letter to the Colossians. In v. 6, Paul declares that “in all the world” the gospel is “bearing fruit and growing.” Similarly, in v. 10 Paul exhorts the Colossians to “bear fruit” in their efforts and “grow” in their knowledge. If you aren’t catching what Paul is laying down: This language echoes the commission of Genesis 1:28 to “be fruitful and multiply.” Likewise, in 1:15 and 3:10, Paul picks up on Imago Dei language to coincide with Gen. 1:26. But then, notice what Paul states in 1:16,

Col. 1:16
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι τὰ πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται

Rev. 4:11
ἄξιος εἶ ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν

The use of “created” (Col 1:16) is completely consistent with Rev. 4:11's use. If only for the verb “created,” both texts express the same thing. The very thing God does in Rev. 4:11, He does “in” and “through” His Son in Col. 1:16, thus, both texts are completely consistent with one another from this vantage point. The verb used for “created” (Rev. 4:11) is an active verb, i.e., something that God does. In Col. 1:16, the verb used for “created” is a passive verb, meaning that it is someone other than Christ (i.e., God) who performs the action of the verb. In both texts, it is God who performs the action of the verb, but in the Col. 1:16 text, it is God who performs the action “in” and “through” His Son. What is implicit in Col. 1:16, is explicit in Rev. 4:11. One text tells you plainly that God created “all things,” the other tells you how He did it.

Further, see Jn. 1:1-3, Heb. 1:7-12.

 

[evyaniy]

Psalm 148 1-6

148:1 Praise YAHH! (HalleluYAHH) "
Praise YHVH from the heavens!
Praise Him in the heights!
148:2 Praise Him, all His angels!
Praise Him, all His army!
148:3 Praise Him, sun and moon!
Praise Him, all you shining stars!
148:4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
You waters that are above the heavens.
148:5 Let them praise the Name of YHVH,
For He commanded, and they were created.
148:6 He has also established them forever and ever.
He has made a decree which will not pass away.

The word commanded in verse 5 is tsaVAH. VAH is the last syllable of His Name YHVH. It means authoritative Word as in command. So His Name YHVH means Eternal Word or Eternal Command which is also How He created.

 

[williamjordan]

1) Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth of the incarnate Christ, Jesus had to die and that was predestined. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the core, the primary belief of Christianity.

2) Jesus being a man could not be omnipresent, flesh and blood is not omnipresent. God is in all places at once but Jesus was limited to a specific location and time, during His life. exactly the same as we are.

3) Jesus was not omniscient, it is incomprehensible for anyone to say that Jesus knew everything. Jesus had a human mind just like our mind. Some are openly in denial that the Word became flesh! Jesus relied on the Father and the Holy Spirit for everything. Jesus only ever exerted what He was given, including knowledge of past, present, and future events. Jesus only spoke what He was told to speak.

4) Jesus did not have the glory that God had, Jesus gave up His divine glory at birth.

5) Jesus was not omnipotent, Jesus was a man. Any power that Jesus expressed over creation was through the power of the Holy Spirit. We have no power over anything in creation except what the Holy Spirit grants us. This is identical to the power that Jesus possessed. The Word became flesh!

To hold to the idea that Jesus was FULLY God incarnate is problematic to say the least.

Jesus did empty Himself completely at birth.

I have often said, "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably isn't a cow." I am wondering if my suspicions are correct. Let's see just "what" sort of beast lies beneath, shall we?

You said that "Jesus emptied Himself completely at birth." But what does that mean exactly?

The term for "existing" in Phil. 2:6 (ὑπάρχων) is a present active participle. Most commentators point out that this speaks to "continued existence" (i.e., "existing," not "existed"). By that, it is meant that Christ "continually exists" in the "form of God" when the action of the verb in v. 7 ("He emptied Himself") took place, and even into the "now" as Paul penned the words ("who existing in the form of God," not "while existing in the form of God").

As BB Warfield explains,

"Paul is not telling us here, then, what our Lord was once, but rather what He already was, or, better, what in His intrinsic nature He is; he is not describing a past mode of existence of our Lord, before the action he is adducing as an example took place – although the mode of existence he describes was our Lord’s mode of existence before this action – so much as painting in the background upon which the action adduced may be thrown up into prominence. He is telling us who and what He is who did these things for us, that we may appreciate how great the things He did for us are."

In your post, you state that "Jesus completely emptied Himself." But I find it strange that you state that "Jesus emptied," when you just got done suggesting that "Jesus" is but human. This sounds somewhat Modalistic. The question that should be asked, is simply this: Who was it that performed the action of "contemplating" their equality with God (Phil. 2:6), and emptied themselves prior to "becoming in the likeness of man"? Phil. 2:7 speaks of the incarnation, but who is performing the action of the verbs prior to 2:7?

 

[williamjordan]

POINT SEVEN: The only Bible verse frequently quoted by those who deny that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, is Jude 1:9, which says, “But even the archangel Michael, when He was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Some people believe this verse proves Jesus and Michael are not the same entity because Michael, in this text, rebukes the devil Himself, by saying, “The Lord rebuke you!” People reason that the Archangel cannot be the Lord for He is calling someone else, “the Lord.” It is always important to let the Bible be its own interpreter. Jude 1:9 becomes much clearer when compared with Zechariah 3:2, where Jesus again is confronting Satan. Zechariah 3:2 says: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’ ” This verse is a perfect parallel to Jude 1:9 – almost a carbon copy – except the names are changed. In one text He is called Michael and in the other He is called the Lord. In both cases, one could argue that Michael/Lord was calling on His Heavenly Father to rebuke the devil.

On both occasions, Christ knew it was pointless to argue with Lucifer’s closed mind – Lucifer had made his mind up long ago. Jesus knew that a day is coming, when as Lord and Judge of all the universe, He will rebuke Satan with finality, condemning him to the lake of fire.

I'm going to press you on this.

Jude 9 is frequently cited as evidence for Jesus being Michael the Archangel. Jude 9 cites from the “Assumption of Moses” (a document that has been preserved for us in other languages), and proponents of this view try to tie Jude 9 in with what is said of the Angel of the LORD in Zechariah 3:2. The point they wish to establish, is that “Michael the Archangel” is this “Angel of the LORD,” hence, the connection with Jesus.

However, recall that Jude cites references “the Book of Enoch” (Jude 1:13-14),

“It was also about these people that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord has come with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.' These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.”

However, here's the problem. This citation that Jude alludes to is from 1 Enoch 1:1-10, which is in reference to the “eternal God” who “will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,”

“The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men). But with the righteous He will make peace. And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed. And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'. And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Further, notice in Zechariah 3-4, this “angel of the LORD” reveals and explains certain particulars pertaining to visions being shown to Zechariah. In Zechariah 4:2, the angel asks Zechariah, “What do you see?” How does Zechariah respond (4:3)?

“I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

This should automatically cause one to recall the seven lamp stands motif in Revelation 1:12. Zechariah then asks the angel a follow-up, “What are these, my lord?” (Zechariah 4:4). The angel responds again (4:6),

“This is the Word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of hosts.’”

This likewise should cause one to recall Revelation 1:13,

“and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”

In Revelation 1:13, there is a “sharp two-edged sword” coming from out of the mouth of this “one like a son of man.” This verbiage is elsewhere used to describe Jesus as the Word of God (Revelation 19:11-16),

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.’”

This verbiage is being borrowed from Wisdom 18:14–16,

“For while gentle silence enveloped all things, and night in its swift course was now half gone, your Almighty Word leaped from heaven, from the royal throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of your authentic command, and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.”

I'm going to argue that in this particular context, the angel in view here is distinguished from the Word of the LORD. Therefore, it does not follow that the OT figure (the Word) is the same figure (at least as it pertains to this particular text in Zechariah) as the angel.

Furthermore, according to Luke, it is Gabriel (an “angel of the LORD”) that appears to Zechariah in his elderly age (Luke 1:8-19). Is that the same angel that Zechariah is speaking about? That part is uncertain. What doesn't seem to be uncertain is that the Word of the LORD (in the visionary experience) is distinguished from the angel.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There's numerous problems here. You made some very serious misteps.

Problem 1:
Depending on which version of Job (the Masoretic or the LXX) you read, it may indicate that the angels cried for joy when God brought the starry hosts into existence. But if you consider the Genesis account; God creates the starry hosts, the sun, and the moon on Day 4 of creation. But what happened on Day 2? God brought forth the heavenly “dwelling space.”

For the heavenly hosts to even exist, they would have had to have an abode to dwell in.

In the Genesis account, God creates the heavenly dwelling space on Day 2. But on Day 3, God creates the earthly abode. Then beginning on Day 4, God fills the heavenly dwelling space. And on Day 5, God begins filling the earthly dwelling space with its hosts.

Just as sea creatures could not live without their dwelling space first established (the sea), neither could angels (or men). This is why the living creatures are not brought into existence until after their proper abodes were first established. This is also the reason why man was created on the sixth day: Because all things were created for him.

So to argue that the angels were present when God first began the creation project, is off. If Job 38 were read correctly, then the most one would be able to argue was that the angels were present by Day 2 or possibly some time on Day 4, prior to the stars existence. But they most certainly were not present prior to Day 1 of creation. One could even argue that the “stars” are representative of the angels, as it is often symbolic in nature.

The question that needs to be answered is: At the time of Genesis 1:1, were the angels in existence? Job 38 does not indicate that they were, not even in the slightest sense. And it wasn't even until Genesis 1:6 that the heavenly dwelling space was even created.

In the Job account, there is nothing in the text that would lead one to assume that angels were in existence prior to Gen. 1:1-2. In fact, Job 38:4-7 (Masoretic) only places their existence prior to (or in sequence with) the events recorded in Gen. 1:16. Job’s account tells us absolutely nothing of their existence prior to Gen. 1:6-8, much less, Gen. 1:1-2.

Job 38:4 is limited in scope; it does not say, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth,” but exclusively refers to, “the foundations of the earth.”

In their independent accounts, 2 Enoch and Jubilees, both place the creation of the angelic hosts somewhere along the 7-Day spectrum:

• In 2 Enoch (28:1-33:2), the heavenly abode was created on Day 1. And then on Day 2 of the creation project, God then fills the heavenly abode with its hosts. This places their existence on par with Day 2 of creation (cf. Gen. 1:6-8).
  
  
• In Jubilee (2:1-33), the angelic hosts are brought into existence on Day 1 of creation. And even though the two accounts may (at least in some regard) differ, the one thing they do agree on, is: That the angelic hosts did not exist prior to Gen. 1:1-2.
  
  
• Psalm 148 provides further support. The author of Psalm 148 lists the angels amongst the things created in a context which alludes back to Gen. 1.

Even in the Palestinian Targumim, though I do disagree with it’s interpretation of Gen. 1:26, says in passing, “And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth.”

And in 2 Ezra 6, it lists the “heavenly hosts” amongst created things (2 Ezra 6:3) in a context where the Genesis story of creation is in view (2 Ezra 6:1–6), though it does not specifically identify which day they were brought into existence (2 Ezra 6:38–54).

What I find convincing is 2 Ezra 6:6,



This statement in 2 Ezra 6:6, when paired with 2 Ezra 6:3, does seem to fly in the face of the claim found in the Palestinian Targumim that angels assisted God in creation of the earthly realm. 2 Ezra 6:3 identifies the angels as being created (amongst the “world” and all it’s “inhabitants”), but in 2 Ezra 6:6 it states explicitly, “and they were made through me alone and not through another; just as the end shall come through me alone and not through another.” Though the Palestinian Targumim and 2 Ezra disagree on this point, the important take away is that both sources agree that the heavenly hosts have their place in existence at sometime during the 7-Day spectrum.

Greetings…. I see it a bit different … But I’m still trying to put the pieces together.

Gen 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

I notice that there is a period at the end of this sentence. That means that this thought is complete and the next sentence is a new thought. In reality there is unknown eons of time between this verse and the next. I believe this is what is called time gap in scriptures, and it is recognized to occur in at least twenty-five places in the Bible.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

“Was” is the English translation of a Hebrew word (hayah) which means Became. In other words, the earth was not created without form and void, but that it became that way at some point in time after it was created.

Hebrew word #1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)

Isa 45:18-19
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain*1, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (KJV)

In the Hebrew Manuscripts that the above verse was translated out of, the word translated into the English as vain is translated from the identical Hebrew word that we saw in Gen 1:1 (tohuw - #2 above), it's the same Hebrew word.

I willing to say… in Genesis 1:2 we have a rejuvenation of the earth, not a creation. Something happened to make the earth void, and I believe angels played a role.

 

[williamjordan]

Also, one other thing that I think needs to be pointed out. Zechariah 3 is actually alluded to in Revelation, and depicts Christ as the one who has the "seven eyes." Does Zechariah define that one as Michael?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1) Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth of the incarnate Christ, Jesus had to die and that was predestined. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the core, the primary belief of Christianity.

2) Jesus being a man could not be omnipresent, flesh and blood is not omnipresent. God is in all places at once but Jesus was limited to a specific location and time, during His life. exactly the same as we are.

3) Jesus was not omniscient, it is incomprehensible for anyone to say that Jesus knew everything. Jesus had a human mind just like our mind. Some are openly in denial that the Word became flesh! Jesus relied on the Father and the Holy Spirit for everything. Jesus only ever exerted what He was given, including knowledge of past, present, and future events. Jesus only spoke what He was told to speak.

4) Jesus did not have the glory that God had, Jesus gave up His divine glory at birth.

5) Jesus was not omnipotent, Jesus was a man. Any power that Jesus expressed over creation was through the power of the Holy Spirit. We have no power over anything in creation except what the Holy Spirit grants us. This is identical to the power that Jesus possessed. The Word became flesh!

To hold to the idea that Jesus was FULLY God incarnate is problematic to say the least.

Jesus did empty Himself completely at birth.

“Jesus surended His eternal life when He became a man, God is eternal but Jesus was not eternal. This is a fundamental truth “

this actually is heretical towards the truth I believe it’s stated in th e forum rules somewhere if I’m not mistaken

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us , full of grace and truth.”

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the creator God the beginning and end and the very source of life eternal from before the beginning to eternity . This is a bad thought to follow brother I’m suprised coming from you God that created all things came forth in the new testement in the flesh he’s not a different guy and certainly he is the lord everlasting and has been always without Jesus there is no eternal life …….

 

[williamjordan]

Greetings…. I see it a bit different … But I’m still trying to put the pieces together.

Gen 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

I notice that there is a period at the end of this sentence. That means that this thought is complete and the next sentence is a new thought. In reality there is unknown eons of time between this verse and the next. I believe this is what is called time gap in scriptures, and it is recognized to occur in at least twenty-five places in the Bible.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

“Was” is the English translation of a Hebrew word (hayah) which means Became. In other words, the earth was not created without form and void, but that it became that way at some point in time after it was created.

Hebrew word #1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)

Isa 45:18-19
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain*1, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (KJV)

In the Hebrew Manuscripts that the above verse was translated out of, the word translated into the English as vain is translated from the identical Hebrew word that we saw in Gen 1:1 (tohuw - #2 above), it's the same Hebrew word.

I willing to say… in Genesis 1:2 we have a rejuvenation of the earth, not a creation. Something happened to make the earth void, and I believe angels played a role.

You do not realize the pickle you just got yourself into by suggesting that Gen. 1:2 is a "renewal" process. Because that is the very thing Paul attributes to Christ in opposition to angels, when he says in Col. 1:16-17,

because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created (ἐκτίσθη) by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created (ἔκτισται) through him and for him, and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together

Notice that the verb for "created" is used twice, but in different tenses. Robert Bowman (with the assistance of Margaret Y. MacDonald) brings out the significance of this,

“The New Testament ascribes this work of providence to the Son, Jesus Christ. Paul states not only that all things ‘were created’ (ektisthe) in the Son, but also that all things ‘have been created’ (ektistai) through and for him (Col. 1:16). Paul uses the same verb but in two different forms. The first form is the aorist, which typically functions as the simple past tense form. The second form is the perfect, which also refers to past activity but typically with an emphasis on present results. ‘The change of verb tense from the aorist to the perfect form indicates creation’s ongoing existence. In other words, not only were all things created but they also remain in their created existence through Christ and for Christ.’ Verse 16, then, indicates that creation stands in an ongoing relation of dependence on the Son for its existence. What seems implicit in verse 16, Paul states explicitly in verse 17: ‘in him all things hold together.’”

Moreover, more problems arise when one considers ancient sources (not limited to those already mentioned previously) such as Targum Neofiti, where this "renewal" (as you interpret it) is a work attributed to the "Word of the Lord,"

From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was waste and unformed, desolate of man and beast, empty of plant cultivation and of trees, and darkness was spread over the face of the abyss; and a spirit of mercy from before the Lord was blowing over the surface of the waters. 3 And the Memra of the Lord said: “Let there be light” and there was light according to the decree of his Memra. 4 And it was manifest before the Lord that the light was good; and the Memra of the Lord separated the light from the darkness. 5 And the Memra of the Lord called the light daytime and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning: (in) the order of the work of creation, first day. 6 And the Memra of the Lord said: “Let there be the firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the lower waters from the upper waters. And the Lord created the firmament and separated the waters that were under the firmament from the waters that were above the firmament; and it was so according to his Memra. 7 And God created the separation, which separated the water below the line of separation and the water above the line of separation, and it was thus as his word.

The issue you face is that no ancient source (not even the NT) includes the angels in this process. It is an act that routinely excludes the angels, as Heb. 1:7-12 indicate.

 

[Magenta]

The question that needs to be answered is: At the time of Genesis 1:1, were the angels
in existence? Job 38 does not indicate that they were, not even in the slightest sense.
And it wasn't even until Genesis 1:6 that the heavenly dwelling space was even created.

I disagree! Those verses are speaking of the creation of the universe, and Earthly realms.
Did God need to create HIS dwelling place??? That is where the angels are.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You do not realize the pickle you just got yourself into by suggesting that Gen. 1:2 is a "renewal" process. Because that is the very thing Paul attributes to Christ in opposition to angels, when he says in Col. 1:16-17,



Notice that the verb for "created" is used twice, but in different tenses. Robert Bowman (with the assistance of Margaret Y. MacDonald) brings out the significance of this,



Moreover, more problems arise when one considers ancient sources (not limited to those already mentioned previously) such as Targum Neofiti, where this "renewal" (as you interpret it) is a work attributed to the "Word of the Lord,"



The issue you face is that no ancient source (not even the NT) includes the angels in this process. It is an act that routinely excludes the angels, as Heb. 1:7-12 indicate.

I have only claimed what presents it scripture.
The text states the earth became void, and

You do not realize the pickle you just got yourself into by suggesting that Gen. 1:2 is a "renewal" process. Because that is the very thing Paul attributes to Christ in opposition to angels, when he says in Col. 1:16-17,



Notice that the verb for "created" is used twice, but in different tenses. Robert Bowman (with the assistance of Margaret Y. MacDonald) brings out the significance of this,



Moreover, more problems arise when one considers ancient sources (not limited to those already mentioned previously) such as Targum Neofiti, where this "renewal" (as you interpret it) is a work attributed to the "Word of the Lord,"



The issue you face is that no ancient source (not even the NT) includes the angels in this process. It is an act that routinely excludes the angels, as Heb. 1:7-12 indicate.

The issue you face, is that we have documentation of souls whether you classify them as men or angels before the the “foundation” of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And as far as your opposition to a rejuvenation of the world.. we’ll that can be easily put to bed.

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament:

(1) themelios, and

(2) katabole.

The Noun, themelios, occurs in Luke 6:48, 49; 14:29. Acts 16:26. Rom. 15:20. 1Cor. 3:10, 11, 12. Eph. 2:20. 1Tim. 6:19. 2Tim. 2:19. Heb. 6:1; 11:10. Rev. 21:14, 19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themeliou) occurs in Matt. 7:25. Luke 6:48. Eph. 3:17. Col. 1:23. Heb. 1:10 and 1Pet. 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Heb. 1:10. A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".

The Noun, katabole, occurs in Matt. 13:35; 25:34. Luke 11:50. John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. Heb. 4:3; 9:26; 11:11. 1Pet. 1:20. Rev. 13:8; 17:8; and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Cor. 4:9. Heb. 6:1; and Rev. 12:10. A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Cor. 4:9, and Rev. 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.

Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Heb. 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, &c., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left -- and progress made unto the perfection. Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".

The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Heb. 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Gr. kosmos. Ap. 129. 1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Gen. 1:2, and described in 2Pet. 3:5, 6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isa. 45:18), but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Gen 1:2 and confirmed by 2Pet. 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Gen. 1:1), perished, and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word "were created (Gen. 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Pet. 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Pet. 3:13.

"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Gen. 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Heb. 1:10 = themeliou), but in Gen. 1:2 we have its overthrow.

This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Ap. 104. iv) seven times, and with pros = before (Ap. 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret. See Ap. 192) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (See John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. 1Pet. 1:20).

Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Gen. 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste and desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Pet. 3:7). ~ Bullinger

 

[williamjordan]

I disagree! Those verses are speaking of the creation of the universe, and Earthly realms.
Did God need to create HIS dwelling place??? That is where the angels are.

You said, "those verses." Which "verses"? I listed a lot.

Keep in mind that Job 38:7 is specifically about the earth's creation. There is no mention of the creation of heaven there. Can you find the word, "heaven" in the text? It is simply saying that angels existed prior to "the earth," but says nothing about their existence prior to "the heavens." The folks that make attempts to push the existence of angels to a time that antedates Gen. 1:1, do so in an attempt to limit Christ's pre-existence. But they really have no textual, or historical warrant for doing so.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You said, "those verses." Which "verses"? I listed a lot.

Keep in mind that Job 38:7 is specifically about the earth's creation. There is no mention of the creation of heaven there. Can you find the word, "heaven" in the text? It is simply saying that angels existed prior to "the earth," but says nothing about their existence prior to "the heavens." The folks that make attempts to push the existence of angels to a time that antedates Gen. 1:1, do so in an attempt to limit Christ's pre-existence. But they really have no textual, or historical warrant for doing so.

I haven’t seen anyone try and limit Christs existence… He is the Alpha and Omega, He exist outside of time and He has always been.

Jesus is God… In the begging (time) God created the heavens (space) and the Earth (matter) Christ exist outside of these, for He created them… Peace

 

[williamjordan]

I have only claimed what presents it scripture.
The text states the earth became void, and

The issue you face, is that we have documentation of souls whether you classify them as men or angels before the the “foundation” of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And as far as your opposition to a rejuvenation of the world.. we’ll that can be easily put to bed.

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament:

(1) themelios, and

(2) katabole.

The Noun, themelios, occurs in Luke 6:48, 49; 14:29. Acts 16:26. Rom. 15:20. 1Cor. 3:10, 11, 12. Eph. 2:20. 1Tim. 6:19. 2Tim. 2:19. Heb. 6:1; 11:10. Rev. 21:14, 19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themeliou) occurs in Matt. 7:25. Luke 6:48. Eph. 3:17. Col. 1:23. Heb. 1:10 and 1Pet. 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Heb. 1:10. A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".

The Noun, katabole, occurs in Matt. 13:35; 25:34. Luke 11:50. John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. Heb. 4:3; 9:26; 11:11. 1Pet. 1:20. Rev. 13:8; 17:8; and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Cor. 4:9. Heb. 6:1; and Rev. 12:10. A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Cor. 4:9, and Rev. 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.

Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Heb. 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, &c., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left -- and progress made unto the perfection. Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".

The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Heb. 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Gr. kosmos. Ap. 129. 1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Gen. 1:2, and described in 2Pet. 3:5, 6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isa. 45:18), but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Gen 1:2 and confirmed by 2Pet. 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Gen. 1:1), perished, and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word "were created (Gen. 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Pet. 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Pet. 3:13.

"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Gen. 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Heb. 1:10 = themeliou), but in Gen. 1:2 we have its overthrow.

This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Ap. 104. iv) seven times, and with pros = before (Ap. 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret. See Ap. 192) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (See John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. 1Pet. 1:20).

Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Gen. 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste and desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Pet. 3:7). ~ Bullinger

No one is denying angels existed prior to the foundations of the earth. My post was against those suggesting that they have existence prior to the foundations of the heavens. Creation of earth was a Day 4 event. The creation of heaven was a Day 1 event. You have no historical records that suggest angels existed prior to Day 1. I am simply saying (with historical evidence to back up the claims) that angels came into existence sometime after Day 1. Notice the sources I cited:

• In 2 Enoch (28:1-33:2), the heavenly abode was created on Day 1. And then on Day 2 of the creation project, God then fills the heavenly abode with its hosts. This places their existence on par with Day 2 of creation (cf. Gen. 1:6-8).
  
  
• In Jubilee (2:1-33), the angelic hosts are brought into existence on Day 1 of creation. And even though the two accounts may (at least in some regard) differ, the one thing they do agree on, is: That the angelic hosts did not exist prior to Gen. 1:1-2.
  
  
• Psalm 148 provides further support. The author of Psalm 148 lists the angels amongst the things created in a context which alludes back to Gen. 1.
  
  
• In 2 Ezra 6, the angelic hosts come into existence at some unspecified time during the 7-Day Creation
  
  
• In the Palestian Targumim, the angelic hosts have their existence on Day 2 of creation, “And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth.”

Simply finding sources that say angels existed before "the earth" won't do. You need to be able to establish their existence before Day 1. Good luck with that.

Unfortunately, you failed in your attempt to "put to bed" my objection. You are being very sloppy with your research. You are making the common man's mistake and running to other instances of the term ἐθεμελίωσας (“founded”), while ignoring the fact that this is the same verb found in Ps. 104 (which is referenced in Heb. 1:7), specifically v. 5. It is also the same verb used in Ps. 8 (specifically, v. 3), which is referenced in the very next chapter (Heb. 2:6), and it is also the same verb found in Prov. 8—used exclusively in contexts which speak about YHWH creating. Each of the OT pericopes in Hebrews 1–2 draw from contexts where the verb is used, and no one would dare argue that the term carries any other sense in those texts. Yet, here when applied to Christ, it all of a sudden carries a different nuance, despite the fact that the author of the epistle gets his diction from the the OT contexts which are interweaved into his narrative. In each of the OT texts referenced throughout the narrative, ἐθεμελίωσας is something YHWH (exclusively) does. Even in the Wisdom literature, ἐθεμελίωσας is an act exclusive to YHWH, and does not mean anything substantively different than what is eludicated in each of the subject texts (Ps. 8, 102, 104, Deut. 32).

On top of the OT references, you are faced with another issue, namely that the text (Heb. 1:10) speaks about the heavens "perishing." What does that mean?

 

[Magenta]

You said, "those verses." Which "verses"? I listed a lot.

Keep in mind that Job 38:7 is specifically about the earth's creation. There is no mention of the creation of heaven there. Can you find the word, "heaven" in the text? It is simply saying that angels existed prior to "the earth," but says nothing about their existence prior to "the heavens." The folks that make attempts to push the existence of angels to a time that antedates Gen. 1:1, do so in an attempt to limit Christ's pre-existence. But they really have no textual, or historical warrant for doing so.

I specifically quoted only the part I was objecting to so any verses you gave relative to that...

Hey, the angels shouted for joy when the creation of the universe was happening. You say there is no
mention of heaven, but where exactly do you think God was while creating with His heavenly host near
enough to be watching? Oh, yeah, there is that: His HEAVENLY host. Did God have to create His abode?

 

[Truthnightmare]

No one is denying angels existed prior to the foundations of the earth. My post was against those suggesting that they have existence prior to the foundations of the heavens. Creation of earth was a Day 4 event. The creation of heaven was a Day 1 event. You have no historical records that suggest angels existed prior to Day 1. I am simply saying (with historical evidence to back up the claims) that angels came into existence sometime after Day 1. Notice the sources I cited:

• In 2 Enoch (28:1-33:2), the heavenly abode was created on Day 1. And then on Day 2 of the creation project, God then fills the heavenly abode with its hosts. This places their existence on par with Day 2 of creation (cf. Gen. 1:6-8).
  
  
• In Jubilee (2:1-33), the angelic hosts are brought into existence on Day 1 of creation. And even though the two accounts may (at least in some regard) differ, the one thing they do agree on, is: That the angelic hosts did not exist prior to Gen. 1:1-2.
  
  
• Psalm 148 provides further support. The author of Psalm 148 lists the angels amongst the things created in a context which alludes back to Gen. 1.
  
  
• In 2 Ezra 6, the angelic hosts come into existence at some unspecified time during the 7-Day Creation
  
  
• In the Palestian Targumim, the angelic hosts have their existence on Day 2 of creation, “And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth.”

Simply finding sources that say angels existed before "the earth" won't do. You need to be able to establish their existence before Day 1. Good luck with that.

Unfortunately, you failed in your attempt to "put to bed" my objection. You are being very sloppy with your research. You are making the common man's mistake and running to other instances of the term ἐθεμελίωσας (“founded”), while ignoring the fact that this is the same verb found in Ps. 104 (which is referenced in Heb. 1:7), specifically v. 5. It is also the same verb used in Ps. 8 (specifically, v. 3), which is referenced in the very next chapter (Heb. 2:6), and it is also the same verb found in Prov. 8—used exclusively in contexts which speak about YHWH creating. Each of the OT pericopes in Hebrews 1–2 draw from contexts where the verb is used, and no one would dare argue that the term carries any other sense in those texts. Yet, here when applied to Christ, it all of a sudden carries a different nuance, despite the fact that the author of the epistle gets his diction from the the OT contexts which are interweaved into his narrative. In each of the OT texts referenced throughout the narrative, ἐθεμελίωσας is something YHWH (exclusively) does. Even in the Wisdom literature, ἐθεμελίωσας is an act exclusive to YHWH, and does not mean anything substantively different than what is eludicated in each of the subject texts (Ps. 8, 102, 104, Deut. 32).

On top of the OT references, you are faced with another issue, namely that the text (Heb. 1:10) speaks about the heavens "perishing." What does that mean?

I know what you’re suggesting.. but I disagree.
Here’s why; I understand you’re not disputing angels existing before the foundation of the earth.
You’re disputing they existed before the foundations of the heavens.

That is your problem.
Heaven is a space, and it cannot exist alone, you need a time to put it in. The earth is matter you need a space to put it in.
In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter) a trinity of trinity’s and they can not exist separately from one another…

Time space and matter cannot exist outside itself.

Just Like God Christ, and the Holy sprit.. you can not say God created space then later he created matter then He created Angels.
Peace

 

[williamjordan]

I specifically quoted only the part I was objecting to so any verses you gave relative to that...

Hey, the angels shouted for joy when the creation of the universe was happening. You say there is no mention of heaven, but where exactly do you think God was with his heavnely host? Oh, yeah, there is that: His HEAVENLY host. Did God have to create His abode?

Technically, "universe" is not in the text either. Is just says, "earth" or "world." The inhabited earth.

God is self-existing, and is not bound to time, space, or matter. He is eternal and self-existing. He was there before He "laid the beams to His upper chambers" (Ps. 104:3-5). Created hosts need a place to dwell. Yes, angels are the "heavenly hosts," but their dwelling place ("heaven") was created first, following the same sequence earth's creation and it's hosts were. What day was earth created? And what day did God bring it's inhabitants into being? Earth came first, and all the necessities for man to live, then afterwards man was put on the earth to rule and subdue.

God alone (to the exclusion of other gods) is responsible for spreading out the heavens, and naturally so, as no other gods existed with God at the time He spread out the heavens, even when He “laid the beams of His upper chambers” (Ps. 104:3-5). Yet, Christ is said to have even been present prior to the “beams of His upper chambers” being laid (Heb. 1:7-12); and is in fact the one who lays them (Heb. 1:10-12), not angels. When Heb. 1:10 speaks of Christ laying the foundations of "the heavens and the earth" that echoes Gen. 1:1. When it speaks of the "heavens as the works of your hands," what does that entail? Notice, "heavens" is in the plural.

Deut. 32:39 and Isaiah 44-45.

 

[williamjordan]

I know what you’re suggesting.. but I disagree.
Here’s why; I understand you’re not disputing angels existing before the foundation of the earth.
You’re disputing they existed before the foundations of the heavens.

That is your problem.
Heaven is a space, and it cannot exist alone, you need a time to put it in. The earth is matter you need a space to put it in.
In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter) a trinity of trinity’s and they can not exist separately from one another…

Time space and matter cannot exist outside itself.

Just Like God Christ, and the Holy sprit.. you can not say God created space then later he created matter then He created Angels.
Peace

It's not my problem, it's yours. You are not exegeting the text, it's that simple. All you have to do is read the words on the pages without reading your theology into it. The simple point is: The "heavens" (plural) are a "dwelling," which God formed (Ps. 104:3-5). They did not exist prior. God is eternal and self-existing and does not require matter or space. You really should base your findings on evidence, not speculation.

 

[Truthnightmare]

It's not my problem, it's yours. You are not exegeting the text, it's that simple. All you have to do is read the words on the pages without reading your theology into it. The simple point is: The "heavens" (plural) are a "dwelling," which God formed (Ps. 104:3-5). They did not exist prior. God is eternal and self-existing and does not require matter or space. You really should base your findings on evidence, not speculation.

I never said God required matter or space, if God required anything to exist He wouldn’t be God… The fact of the matter is Lucifer fell, along with his angels between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2..
We know when Lucifer fell he drew angels with him.. So when did he fall? Had to be before Gen 3… He’s already being called a serpent… Had to be before Gen 2 because he is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. So on what day did Lucifer fall?
And as a matter of fact, what day was lucifer walking on the alter of God?
Ezekiel 28:14
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.