Are gifts evidence of salvation?
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It;s not the 1st time ive read it... It is speaking of the late part of the "end-times" or the great and awesome day of יהוה
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they sl prophesy."
So it is a quote:
Joel 2:28-32,“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions.“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapec as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.
The bolded part prives it is the late part of the "end-times" or the great and awesome day of יהוה
Malachi 4:1-6, “For look, the day shall come, *burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’yl – laws and right-rulings. See, I am sending you Ěliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה."4:6, and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with utter destruction.” (Zec 14:13)
Joel 2:28-32,“...the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.“
Isaiah 13:9-13, “Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless. I shall make mortal man scarcer than fine gold, and mankind scarcer than the gold of Ophir. So I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth shall shake from her place, in the wrath of יהוה of hosts and in the day of the heat of His displeasure.”
I could give you more than 25 probably more than 50 more passages about this, but I think this shows well enough.
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they sl prophesy."
So it is a quote:
Joel 2:28-32,“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions.“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapec as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.
The bolded part prives it is the late part of the "end-times" or the great and awesome day of יהוה
Malachi 4:1-6, “For look, the day shall come, *burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’yl – laws and right-rulings. See, I am sending you Ěliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה."4:6, and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with utter destruction.” (Zec 14:13)
Joel 2:28-32,“...the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.“
Isaiah 13:9-13, “Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless. I shall make mortal man scarcer than fine gold, and mankind scarcer than the gold of Ophir. So I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth shall shake from her place, in the wrath of יהוה of hosts and in the day of the heat of His displeasure.”
I could give you more than 25 probably more than 50 more passages about this, but I think this shows well enough.
i.e. if somebody claims to be prophesying (Speaking as the Spirit gives the words), and calls Jesus "Accursed", then he's not speaking by the Holy Spirit at all, and is a false prophet.
Actually NOT TRUE at one level - i.e. anybody can speak the WORDS: "Jesus is Lord" any time they choose - doesn't require the Spirit at all.
HOWEVER the only way that a person CAN REALLY KNOW in their heart that Jesus is Lord, is by way of the Holy Spirit telling them.
Actually NOT TRUE at one level - i.e. anybody can speak the WORDS: "Jesus is Lord" any time they choose - doesn't require the Spirit at all.
HOWEVER the only way that a person CAN REALLY KNOW in their heart that Jesus is Lord, is by way of the Holy Spirit telling them.
I already talked about this, and no the "Day of YHWH" didnot already happen, it happens after Yahshua's 2nd coming...
Malachi 3:2 “And who is able to bear the day of His coming, and who is able to stand when He appears? For He is like the fire of a refiner, and like the soap of a launderer.”
Revelation 6:17, “because the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet*.”
Revelation 1:9-10,I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Malachi 4:1-6,“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall.And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
Malachi 3:2 “And who is able to bear the day of His coming, and who is able to stand when He appears? For He is like the fire of a refiner, and like the soap of a launderer.”
Revelation 6:17, “because the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet*.”
Revelation 1:9-10,I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Malachi 4:1-6,“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall.And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
Joel 2
The Day of the LORD
[1] Blow a trumpet in Zion;
sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of the LORD is coming; it is near,
[2] a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.
[3] Fire devours before them,
and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
but behind them a desolate wilderness,
and nothing escapes them.
[4] Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
and like war horses they run.
[5] As with the rumbling of chariots,
they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
drawn up for battle.
[6] Before them peoples are in anguish;
all faces grow pale.
[7] Like warriors they charge;
like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
they do not swerve from their paths.
[8] They do not jostle one another;
each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
and are not halted.
[9] They leap upon the city,
they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
they enter through the windows like a thief.
[10] The earth quakes before them;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining.
[11] The LORD utters his voice
before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the LORD is great and very awesome;
who can endure it?
Return to the LORD
[12] “Yet even now,” declares the LORD,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
[13] and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
[14] Who knows whether he will not turn and relent,
and leave a blessing behind him,
a grain offering and a drink offering
for the LORD your God?
[15] Blow the trumpet in Zion;
consecrate a fast;
call a solemn assembly;
[16] gather the people.
Consecrate the congregation;
assemble the elders;
gather the children,
even nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom leave his room,
and the bride her chamber.
[17] Between the vestibule and the altar
let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep
and say, “Spare your people, O LORD,
and make not your heritage a reproach,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’”
The LORD Had Pity
[18] Then the LORD became jealous for his land
and had pity on his people.
[19] The LORD answered and said to his people,
“Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.
[20] “I will remove the northerner far from you,
and drive him into a parched and desolate land,
his vanguard into the eastern sea,
and his rear guard into the western sea;
the stench and foul smell of him will rise,
for he has done great things.
[21] “Fear not, O land;
be glad and rejoice,
for the LORD has done great things!
[22] Fear not, you beasts of the field,
for the pastures of the wilderness are green;
the tree bears its fruit;
the fig tree and vine give their full yield.
[23] “Be glad, O children of Zion,
and rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given the early rain for your vindication;
he has poured down for you abundant rain,
the early and the latter rain, as before.
[24] “The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
[25] I will restore to you the years
that the swarming locust has eaten,
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
my great army, which I sent among you.
[26] “You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has dealt wondrously with you.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
[27] You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the LORD your God and there is none else.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
The LORD Will Pour Out His Spirit
[28] “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
[29] Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
[30] “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. [31] The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. [32] And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:1-11 speaks of God’s wrath to come, the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Joel 2:11-17 is a call to repentance.
Joel 2:18- speaks of Christ’s earthly ministry.
Joel 2:28-29 after Christ’s earthly ministry the spirit will be given. Which Peter references.
Joel 2:30-31 continues speaking about the final day of the Lord, the second coming.
The Day of the LORD
[1] Blow a trumpet in Zion;
sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of the LORD is coming; it is near,
[2] a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.
[3] Fire devours before them,
and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
but behind them a desolate wilderness,
and nothing escapes them.
[4] Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
and like war horses they run.
[5] As with the rumbling of chariots,
they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
drawn up for battle.
[6] Before them peoples are in anguish;
all faces grow pale.
[7] Like warriors they charge;
like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
they do not swerve from their paths.
[8] They do not jostle one another;
each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
and are not halted.
[9] They leap upon the city,
they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
they enter through the windows like a thief.
[10] The earth quakes before them;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining.
[11] The LORD utters his voice
before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the LORD is great and very awesome;
who can endure it?
Return to the LORD
[12] “Yet even now,” declares the LORD,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
[13] and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
[14] Who knows whether he will not turn and relent,
and leave a blessing behind him,
a grain offering and a drink offering
for the LORD your God?
[15] Blow the trumpet in Zion;
consecrate a fast;
call a solemn assembly;
[16] gather the people.
Consecrate the congregation;
assemble the elders;
gather the children,
even nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom leave his room,
and the bride her chamber.
[17] Between the vestibule and the altar
let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep
and say, “Spare your people, O LORD,
and make not your heritage a reproach,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’”
The LORD Had Pity
[18] Then the LORD became jealous for his land
and had pity on his people.
[19] The LORD answered and said to his people,
“Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.
[20] “I will remove the northerner far from you,
and drive him into a parched and desolate land,
his vanguard into the eastern sea,
and his rear guard into the western sea;
the stench and foul smell of him will rise,
for he has done great things.
[21] “Fear not, O land;
be glad and rejoice,
for the LORD has done great things!
[22] Fear not, you beasts of the field,
for the pastures of the wilderness are green;
the tree bears its fruit;
the fig tree and vine give their full yield.
[23] “Be glad, O children of Zion,
and rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given the early rain for your vindication;
he has poured down for you abundant rain,
the early and the latter rain, as before.
[24] “The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
[25] I will restore to you the years
that the swarming locust has eaten,
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
my great army, which I sent among you.
[26] “You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has dealt wondrously with you.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
[27] You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the LORD your God and there is none else.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
The LORD Will Pour Out His Spirit
[28] “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
[29] Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
[30] “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. [31] The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. [32] And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:1-11 speaks of God’s wrath to come, the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Joel 2:11-17 is a call to repentance.
Joel 2:18- speaks of Christ’s earthly ministry.
Joel 2:28-29 after Christ’s earthly ministry the spirit will be given. Which Peter references.
Joel 2:30-31 continues speaking about the final day of the Lord, the second coming.
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Acts 2:17-18 as referenced to Joel 2:28-29, has already happened. Go back 1 verse earlier to Acts 2:16 which says "this is that"
"16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"
The power from on high was promised to the apostles by the Lord as recorded in Luke 24:49, who then had that power to enable the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit (gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10), by the laying on of THEIR hands which resulted in further fulfilling the Joel prophesy.
The words "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH"; in Joel 2:28, is making a reference to the Gentiles (all flesh, not just the Jews to which Joel was addressed). This also happened as recorded in Acts 10 with the Gentiles being brought into the church followed by subsequent events.
"16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"
The power from on high was promised to the apostles by the Lord as recorded in Luke 24:49, who then had that power to enable the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit (gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10), by the laying on of THEIR hands which resulted in further fulfilling the Joel prophesy.
The words "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH"; in Joel 2:28, is making a reference to the Gentiles (all flesh, not just the Jews to which Joel was addressed). This also happened as recorded in Acts 10 with the Gentiles being brought into the church followed by subsequent events.
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We can agree to disagree
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy."
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy."
Exodus 16:4
GOD’S WORD Translation
4 The Lord said to Moses, “I’m going to send you food from heaven like rain. Each day the people should go out and gather only what they need for that day. In this way I will test them to see whether or not they will follow my instructions.
God poured out this miraculous era for 40 years and He ended it without giving notice.
Joshua 5:12
GOD'S WORD Translation
The day after that, the manna stopped. The people of Israel never had manna again. That year they began to eat the crops that grew in Canaan.
So what's your point?
GOD’S WORD Translation
4 The Lord said to Moses, “I’m going to send you food from heaven like rain. Each day the people should go out and gather only what they need for that day. In this way I will test them to see whether or not they will follow my instructions.
God poured out this miraculous era for 40 years and He ended it without giving notice.
Joshua 5:12
GOD'S WORD Translation
The day after that, the manna stopped. The people of Israel never had manna again. That year they began to eat the crops that grew in Canaan.
So what's your point?
Here is the problem and the heart of the OP.
Anyone claiming supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not simply presenting an opinion.
They are indirectly claiming authority.
Authority that comes from the bestowing of the supernatural gifts.
Why would God bestow these awesome supernatural gifts to me if I am not saved?
And why should I concern myself with the opinion of those who have not been given any supernatural gifts?
Anyone claiming supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not simply presenting an opinion.
They are indirectly claiming authority.
Authority that comes from the bestowing of the supernatural gifts.
Why would God bestow these awesome supernatural gifts to me if I am not saved?
And why should I concern myself with the opinion of those who have not been given any supernatural gifts?
Maybe you misunderstood me, I believe YHWH can still have His SPiritual power work through people from this very day, to the 2 witnesses and beyond. I quoted this passage as proof that it is still possible...
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. "
What is being quoted from also speaks of "The great day of YHWH" that is when YWHH releases His wrath upon the earth and those who are left, that has not yet happened, so it is still future....
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. "
What is being quoted from also speaks of "The great day of YHWH" that is when YWHH releases His wrath upon the earth and those who are left, that has not yet happened, so it is still future....