Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[SpeakTruth101]

Wrong. The laws of the Torah were ended in/by Christ and were never intended by God to bring eternal justification. Man, in trying to
justify himself before God, is the trampling underfoot of Christ, because by it, he sets the salvation Christ had provided at naught.

[Eze 20:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

You are clueless, read the passage:

Ezekiel 20:19-26,I am יהוה your Elohim. Walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and do them.And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between Me and you, to know that I am יהוה your Elohim.’“But the children rebelled against Me. They did not walk in My laws, and My right-rulings they did not guard to do them, which, if a man does, he shall live by them. They profaned My Sabbaths, so I resolved to pour out My wrath on them to complete My displeasure against them in the wilderness.“But I held back My hand and acted for My Name’s sake, not to profane it before the eyes of the nations, before whose eyes I had brought them out.“Also, I Myself lifted My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, to scatter them among the nations and disperse them throughout the lands,because they had not done My right-rulings, and they rejected My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were on their fathers’ idols.“And I also gave them up to laws (Psa 81:12, Act 7:42) that were not good, and right-rulings by which they would not live. 11.“And I defiled them by their own gifts, as they passed all their first-born through the fire, so that I might stun them, so that they know that I am יהוה.” ’

Psalms 81:11-13,“But My people did not listen to My voice, And Yisra’ĕl would not submit to Me.“So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels.“O, if My people had listened to Me, Yisra’ĕl would walk in My ways,

Acts 7:42-43,“So Elohim turned and gave them up to worship the host of the heaven, as it has been written in the book of the Prophets, ‘Did you bring slaughtered beasts and offerings unto Me during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Yisra’ĕl? (Deu 4:19, Deu 17:3; 2Ki 23:5).‘And you took up the tent of Moleḵ, and the star of your mighty one Kiyyun, images which you made to bow before them. Therefore I shall remove you beyond Baḇel.’ Amo 5:25-27.

 

[rogerg]

That verse does not sasy those people "escaped the defilments of the earth" it says they have joy and belief.

It is the same thing - it doesn't have to use the same words. The "seed" is the word of God. The word of God is what makes someone escape the defilements of the world. The defilements are found in working for our own justification before God, rather than
of trusting in Christ's works for it.

 

[brightfame52]

My question was do you believe His disciples that He taught privately were unsaved Jews?


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3



Either they were disciples of Jesus Christ or they were unsaved Jews.


At this point, Judas had not fallen away.







JPT

Christ disciples were saved, except judas, the chosen son of perdition, the lost one. Now the other eleven were ethnic jews, however that has nothing to do with why God saved them, salvation is by grace, not race

 

[SpeakTruth101]

It is the same thing - it doesn't have to use the same words. The "seed" is the word of God. The word of God is what makes someone escape the defilements of the world. The defilements are found in working for our own justification before God, rather than
of trusting in Christ's works for it.

which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

and

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them "

is not the same thing, words have meanings.

They might be a similar thing but they are not the same


Each one of these is different also:

Luke 8:12-15,“And those by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, lest having believed, they should be saved.

“And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy. And these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of trial fall away.“

And that which fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with worries, and riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to perfection.“

And that on the good soil are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, retain it, and bear fruit with endurance.

 

[rogerg]

You are clueless, read the passage:

Ezekiel 20:19-26,I am יהוה your Elohim. Walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and do them.And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between Me and you, to know that I am יהוה your Elohim.’“But the children rebelled against Me. They did not walk in My laws, and My right-rulings they did not guard to do them, which, if a man does, he shall live by them. They profaned My Sabbaths, so I resolved to pour out My wrath on them to complete My displeasure against them in the wilderness.“But I held back My hand and acted for My Name’s sake, not to profane it before the eyes of the nations, before whose eyes I had brought them out.“Also, I Myself lifted My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, to scatter them among the nations and disperse them throughout the lands,because they had not done My right-rulings, and they rejected My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were on their fathers’ idols.“And I also gave them up to laws (Psa 81:12, Act 7:42) that were not good, and right-rulings by which they would not live. 11.“And I defiled them by their own gifts, as they passed all their first-born through the fire, so that I might stun them, so that they know that I am יהוה.” ’

Psalms 81:11-13,“But My people did not listen to My voice, And Yisra’ĕl would not submit to Me.“So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels.“O, if My people had listened to Me, Yisra’ĕl would walk in My ways,

Acts 7:42-43,“So Elohim turned and gave them up to worship the host of the heaven, as it has been written in the book of the Prophets, ‘Did you bring slaughtered beasts and offerings unto Me during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Yisra’ĕl? (Deu 4:19, Deu 17:3; 2Ki 23:5).‘And you took up the tent of Moleḵ, and the star of your mighty one Kiyyun, images which you made to bow before them. Therefore I shall remove you beyond Baḇel.’ Amo 5:25-27.

You are clueless as to what the true laws of God are. They were never the laws of the Torah. The following are, and have always been,
God's true laws. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ITSELF frees from the law of sin and death - nothing that man may or may not do does. Notice the Torah is not mentioned below. Why? Because it was never intended by God to give eternal life. That was the error of the Jews: they didn't understand and therefore ignored God's true laws.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

You are clueless as to what the true laws of God are. They were never the laws of the Torah. The following are, and have always been,
God's true laws. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ITSELF frees from the law of sin and death - nothing that man may or may not do does. Notice the Torah is not mentioned below. Why? Because it was never intended by God to give eternal life. That was the error of the Jews: they didn't understand and therefore ignored God's true laws.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

read the following verses

Romans 8:3-8,For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

I see why you stopped quoting where you did...

 

[rogerg]

Christ disciples were saved, except judas, the chosen son of perdition, the lost one. Now the other eleven were ethnic jews, however that has nothing to do with why God saved them, salvation is by grace, not race

I can't say it any plainer than I have. They are speaking of the same thing.

 

[rogerg]

I see why you stopped quoting where you did...

And I see why you stopped where you did. Do you see "them which are in Christ Jesus"? It is the law of the Spirit of life in
Christ Jesus ALONE that gives eternal life.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Do you see the "if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you"? Do you see the "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not of his"? Where do you find the keeping of the Torah there anywhere in it? You won't - it isn't there - because it is all of Christ, not of man.

[Rom 8:9 KJV] 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

And I see why you stopped where you did. Do you see "them which are in Christ Jesus"? It is the law of the Spirit of life in
Christ Jesus ALONE that gives eternal life.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Do you see the "if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you"? Do you see the "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not of his"? Where do you find the keeping of the Torah there anywhere in it? You won't - it isn't there - because it is all of Christ, not of man.

[Rom 8:9 KJV] 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

except that verse does not disprove what I was saying, I agree with verse 9

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

 

[rogerg]

except that verse does not disprove what I was saying, I agree with verse 9

It does disprove it. In those verses, Christ is the focus, and the doer; man, and man's works are not. Trying to self-justify themselves before God by trying to keep the Torah to be sinless, was their attempt to satisfy laws and the statutes that God said whereby they would not live.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

I see you had to cut out the part of my post where I quoted Yahshua's words and commands...

except that verse does not disprove what I was saying, I agree with verse 9
1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

It does disprove it. In those verses, Christ is the focus, and the doer; man, and man's works are not. Trying to self-justify themselves before God by trying to keep the Torah to be sinless, was their attempt to satisfy laws and the statutes that God said whereby they would not live.

So verse 9 disproves verse 3-8?

I gave no commentary on it, so how could it disprove anything I posted?

read the following verses

Romans 8:3-8,For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

I see why you stopped quoting where you did...

Show me what it disproves that I posted please

 

[rogerg]

I see you had to cut out the part of my post where I quoted Yahshua's words and commands...

Which post

So verse 9 disproves verse 3-8?

I gave no commentary on it, so how could it disprove anything I posted?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Show me what it disproves that I posted please

You posted that the keeping of the Torah is required for eternal salvation, did you not?

The basis of all of the verses I posted say that it is by Christ alone, and that man cannot achieve it, nor make any contribution to it, by
the keeping of the Torah or by any other law.

Is that what you believe?

 

[SpeakTruth101]

This one

except that verse does not disprove what I was saying, I agree with verse 9

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

1 John 2:6, and 1 John 3:24 were removed

Which post

I don't know what you're talking about.

You posted that the keeping of the Torah is required for eternal salvation, did you not?

The basis of all of the verses I posted say that it is by Christ alone, and that man cannot achieve it, nor make any contribution to it, by
the keeping of the Torah or by any other law.

Is that what you believe?

Can you quote where I said what you calim of me?

Or are verses like this what you disagree with:

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

 

[rogerg]

So verse 9 disproves verse 3-8?

Verse 9 continues the explanation of the doctrine verses 3 - 8 are discussing.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Verse 9 continues the explanation of the doctrine verses 3 - 8 are discussing.

I agree, I just thought v 3-8 should not be sepreated from 1-2

And I see why you stopped where you did. Do you see "them which are in Christ Jesus"? It is the law of the Spirit of life in
Christ Jesus ALONE that gives eternal life.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Do you see the "if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you"? Do you see the "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not of his"? Where do you find the keeping of the Torah there anywhere in it? You won't - it isn't there - because it is all of Christ, not of man.

[Rom 8:9 KJV] 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

read the following verses

Romans 8:3-8,For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

I see why you stopped quoting where you did...

 

[cv5]

SO these defilements of the world can or can not make some one fall short of the Kingdom?

Defilements like adultery and murder? Nope. Can not. Definitely. Cannot lose you salvation.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Defilements like adultery and murder? Nope. Can not. Definitely. Cannot lose you salvation.

twisted.

I disagree, no one in the Spirit of YHWH would do those things.

That is what Jude warned of.

Jude 1:3-4,Beloved ones, making all haste to write to you concerning our common deliverance, I felt the necessity to write to you urging you to earnestly contend for the belief which was once for all delivered to the set-apart ones.For certain men have slipped in, whose judgment was written about long ago, wicked ones perverting the favour of our Elohim for licentiousness , and denying the only Master יהוה and our Master יהושע Messiah"

Revelation 22:12-16,And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be;I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

 

[rogerg]

1 John 2:6, and 1 John 3:24 were removed

Did you actually read those verses? Do you see the " verily is the love of God perfected"? By "love of God is perfected" means
that it is perfected BY God, not by man. The commandment of God per 1 John 3:23, is to believe in Christ. This can only occur if someone is made perfect by God. Since it is God's commandment, then He must be the one to bring it to fruition to all, and only, those to whom it applies. It does not apply to everyone.
Verse 3:24 confirms that to keep the commandment (of believing the name of Christ), the Holy Spirit must abide in them.
It is all by God, none by man.

[1Jo 2:4-6 KJV]
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[1Jo 3:24 KJV] 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Did you actually read those verses? Do you see the " verily is the love of God perfected"? By "love of God is perfected" means
that it is perfected BY God, not by man. The commandment of God per 1 John 3:23, is to believe in Christ. This can only occur if someone is made perfect by God. Since it is God's commandment, then He must be the one to bring it to fruition to all, and only, those to whom it applies. It does not apply to everyone.
Verse 3:24 confirms that to keep the commandment (of believing the name of Christ), the Holy Spirit must abide in them.
It is all by God, none by man.

[1Jo 2:4-6 KJV]
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[1Jo 3:24 KJV] 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

What do you believe about these 2 passages:

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”






keeping the Commands in His Spirit is love.

one passage does not cancel out the rest of the word.

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

 

[cv5]

twisted.

I disagree, no one in the Spirit of YHWH would do those things.

That is what Jude warned of.

Jude 1:3-4,Beloved ones, making all haste to write to you concerning our common deliverance, I felt the necessity to write to you urging you to earnestly contend for the belief which was once for all delivered to the set-apart ones.For certain men have slipped in, whose judgment was written about long ago, wicked ones perverting the favour of our Elohim for licentiousness , and denying the only Master יהוה and our Master יהושע Messiah"

Revelation 22:12-16,And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be;I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

So you are saying that King David is not saved? Not true. David was given the gift of eternal mercy by God's unilateral COVENANT.
We are forever saved similarly.

1Ch 17:13
I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: