Is it a moral or legal obligation to pay a debt to a bank?

[Tall_Timbers]

PS- In Britain the law requires us to buy a £159 TV licence each year which goes to the BBC even though Beeb programmes are often spiritually perverted, that's another dilemma for Christians, to pay or not to pay..

If you don't have a tv do you still have to pay the £159 TV licence?

 

[SpeakTruth101]

There's no fraud involved when a person agrees to the loan stipulations. In the case of usury, don't agree to the loan... but if you do, uphold your end of the bargain.

Fiat currency, fractional lending, market manipulation, stock markets, its all rigged. Being tricked, manipulated and taxed beyond any reasonable amount is made to make people have no choice but to take their dishonest deals. Then there is a military that will go after any nation who does not accept the banking cartel.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Nehemiah 5:1-19,1 And there was a great outcry of the people and their wives against their brothers, the Yehuḏim. 2 And there were some who were saying, “We, our sons, and our daughters are many. Let us get grain for them, and eat, and live.” 3 And there were some who were saying, “We have mortgaged our lands and vineyards and houses. Let us buy grain because of the scarcity of food.” 4 And there were those who were saying, “We have borrowed silver for the sovereign’s tax on our lands and vineyards. 5 “And now our flesh is like the flesh of our brothers, our children like their children. And see, we are subjecting our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have already been subjected, and there is no power in our hands, for other men have our lands and vineyards.” 6 And it was very displeasing to me when I heard their outcry and these words. 7 And my heart ruled over me, and I strove with the nobles and with the deputy rulers, and said to them, “You are exacting interest, each one from his brother.” And I called a great assembly against them, 8 and said to them, “According to our ability we have redeemed our brothers, the Yehuḏim, who were sold to the nations. And you even sell your brothers! Or should they be sold to us?” And they were silent and found not a word to say. 9 I also said, “What you are doing is not good. Should you not walk in the fear of our Elohim because of the reproach of the nations, our enemies? 10 “And also, I, my brothers and my servants, am lending them silver and grain. Please, let us leave off this interest! 11 “Please, give back to them, even today, their lands, their vineyards, their olive-trees, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the silver and of the grain, and of the new wine, and of the oil, that you have taken from them.” 12 And they said, “Let us give it back, and ask no more from them, we do as you say.” Then I called the priests, and made them swear to do according to this word. 13 I also shook out the fold of my garment and said, “Let Elohim in this way shake out each man from his house, and from his property, who does not do this word, even to be thus shaken out and emptied.” And all the assembly said, “Amĕn!” and praised יהוה. And the people did according to this word. 14 Also, from the day I was commanded to be their governor in the land of Yehuḏah, from the twentieth year until the thirty-second year of Sovereign Artaḥshashta, twelve years, neither I nor my brothers ate the governor’s food. 15 But the former governors who were before me laid burdens on the people, and took from them bread and wine, besides forty sheqels of silver. Their servants also oppressed the people, but I did not do so, because of the fear of Elohim. 16 And I also worked strongly in the work on this wall. We did not buy any land. And all my servants were gathered there for the work. 17 And at my table were one hundred and fifty of the Yehuḏim and deputy rulers, besides those who came to us from the nations around us. 18 And that which was prepared for me daily was one ox and six choice sheep, and birds were prepared for me, and once every ten days plenty of all kinds of wine. And in spite of this I did not seek the governor’s food, because the bondage was heavy on this people. 19 O my Elohim, remember me for the good – all that I have done for this people.

 

[shittim]

The smaller amount you pay regularly on the principle amount owed, the more interest you accrue.

That's why it is always best to pay off your debts as quickly as possible.

the best would be to not be a debtor

 

[SpeakTruth101]

1 Samuel 8:10-19, “10 And Shemu’ĕl spoke all the words of יהוה to the people who asked him for a sovereign, 11 and said, “This is the ruling of the sovereign who does reign over you: He shall take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and they shall run before his chariots, 12 and appoint commanders over his thousands and commanders over his fifties, or to plough his ground and reap his harvest, or to make his weapons, and equipment for his chariots. 13 “And your daughters he is going to take to be perfumers, and cooks, and bakers. 14 “And the best of your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive-trees he is going to take and give them to his servants. 15 “And a tenth of your grain and your vintage he is going to take and give it to his officers and servants. 16 “And your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys he is going to take and use for his own work. 17 “A tenth of your sheep he is going to take, and you are to be his servants. 18 “And you shall cry out in that day because of your sovereign whom you have chosen for yourselves, but יהוה is not going to answer you in that day.” 19 However, the people refused to listen to the voice of Shemu’ĕl, and said, “No, but let a sovereign be over us.”

 

[SomeDisciple]

PS- In Britain the law requires us to buy a £159 TV licence each year which goes to the BBC even though Beeb programmes are often spiritually perverted, that's another dilemma for Christians, to pay or not to pay..

You guys should dress up like Scots and dump your TVs into the Portsmouth Harbor...

"You guys are living like kings with these luxurious TVs! It's only fair that you pay your fair share, rich man!" lol... meanwhile I hear that in the UK it's become the norm for middle-aged people to be living with their parents, because no one can afford their own place bigger than 10sq ft.

 

[JohnB]

Deuteronomy 15:1-3, “At the end of every seven years you make a release of debts. And this is the word of the release: Every creditor is to release what he has loaned to his neighbor, he does not require it of his neighbour or his brother, because it is called the release of יהוה. Of a foreigner you could require it, but your hand is to release whatever is owed by your brother.”

Deuteronomy 15:9-11,9 “Be on guard lest there be a thought of Beliya‛al in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is near,’ and your eye is evil against your poor brother and you give him naught. And he shall cry out to יהוה against you, and it shall be a sin in you. 10 “You shall certainly give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this reason יהוה your Elohim does bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand. 11 “Because the poor one does not cease from the land. Therefore I am commanding you, saying, ‘You shall certainly open your hand to your brother, to your poor and to your needy one, in your land.”

Proverbs 18:9, “Also, he who is slack in his work Is a brother of a master destroyer.”

Proverbs 12:11-12, “He who tills his land is satisfied with bread, But he who pursues vanities is lacking heart. The wrong shall covet the catch of evil-doers, But the root of the righteous yields fruit.”

With a release every sever years one would be more certain the person they lend money to would have the ability to pay back, rather than purposefully lending at predatory interest to essentially make them enslaved to the debt plus interest.
Thus the year of release eliminates predatory lending. Yet it says do not withhold from the poor, but a poor man would not need a million dollar loan to get himself off his feet to give him a foundation to rise out of poverty. When a high interest rate on an amount of money they could never pay back would enslave them to said debt. With no year of release, it would be perpetual debt slavery. Therefore one could loan money to the poor but realistically, for their well being not for a wasteful desire and as Exodus 22:25 says, without interest. One is not forced to loan money to someone who wastes it on luxury goods, drugs, alcohol, or frivolous items, those people would not be poor and needy but rather wasteful. Wasteful spending is not helping a man get out of poverty but rather ensuring it.

Proverbs 14:23, “In all labor there is profit, But talk of the lips leads only to poverty.”

But bad things can happen even if the person had the right intentions. Many people followed all the rules for buying a house. They paid 20% down, had a nice job. Than suddenly through no fault of their own, Wall St crashes the market wiping out their savings and costing them their job. They lose everything. The same people who wiped you out, are now telling you, you have a moral obligation pay them back.

 

[JohnB]

First of all, let the bank pay back all those it has robbed via usury (i.e. charging interest) and fraud (i.e. lending money that it doesn't own or that doesn't even exist). Once this is done, and compensation is paid to the same for these thefts made by the bank, it will be in a more suitable moral position to preach morality to it's defaulting debtors.

This is why I told them, banks have no morals.

 

[ResidentAlien]

But bad things can happen even if the person had the right intentions. Many people followed all the rules for buying a house. They paid 20% down, had a nice job. Than suddenly through no fault of their own, Wall St crashes the market wiping out their savings and costing them their job. They lose everything. The same people who wiped you out, are now telling you, you have a moral obligation pay them back.

You have the right to take them to court if you think you've been defrauded. You don't have the right to just say, "Hey, they're a bunch of scumbags so I'm not obligated to do what's right in the Lord's eyes." That's called thinking you're smarter than God.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

But bad things can happen even if the person had the right intentions. Many people followed all the rules for buying a house. They paid 20% down, had a nice job. Than suddenly through no fault of their own, Wall St crashes the market wiping out their savings and costing them their job. They lose everything. The same people who wiped you out, are now telling you, you have a moral obligation pay them back.

Touched on that here

Fiat currency, fractional lending, market manipulation, stock markets, its all rigged. Being tricked, manipulated and taxed beyond any reasonable amount is made to make people have no choice but to take their dishonest deals. Then there is a military that will go after any nation who does not accept the banking cartel.

If strings are pulled to cheat people then it is dishonest, cheating and even stealing the averages person well being, however that does not apply to every person, say a person takes a loan and buys a brand new luxury car, like a 300k$ car, and spends wastefully, and ends up broke, that is not the fault of the lender. I have seem multi-millionaires and billionaire bankers get bailed out by taxpayers, that includes minimum wage workers taxes going to billionaires... If another is being squeezed by the dishonest system, and has no choice to take a loan to retain the house or fix their car to get to work then I don't think that person is in the wrong. I have made a number of posts on this topic, a lot was posted but I touched on most of this, generally, but I know a lot of people posting and I dont expect anyone to see every post.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Every case is different but if the lender is predatory and rigged then it is not an honest right deal to begin with, if someone swindles an old lady out of her money that does not mean it is theirs to rightfully keep.

 

[hornetguy]

Nehemiah 5:1-19,1 And there was a great outcry of the people and their wives against their brothers, the Yehuḏim. 2 And there were some who were saying, “We, our sons, and our daughters are many. Let us get grain for them, and eat, and live.” 3 And there were some who were saying, “We have mortgaged our lands and vineyards and houses. Let us buy grain because of the scarcity of food.” 4 And there were those who were saying, “We have borrowed silver for the sovereign’s tax on our lands and vineyards. 5 “And now our flesh is like the flesh of our brothers, our children like their children. And see, we are subjecting our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have already been subjected, and there is no power in our hands, for other men have our lands and vineyards.” 6 And it was very displeasing to me when I heard their outcry and these words. 7 And my heart ruled over me, and I strove with the nobles and with the deputy rulers, and said to them, “You are exacting interest, each one from his brother.” And I called a great assembly against them, 8 and said to them, “According to our ability we have redeemed our brothers, the Yehuḏim, who were sold to the nations. And you even sell your brothers! Or should they be sold to us?” And they were silent and found not a word to say. 9 I also said, “What you are doing is not good. Should you not walk in the fear of our Elohim because of the reproach of the nations, our enemies? 10 “And also, I, my brothers and my servants, am lending them silver and grain. Please, let us leave off this interest! 11 “Please, give back to them, even today, their lands, their vineyards, their olive-trees, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the silver and of the grain, and of the new wine, and of the oil, that you have taken from them.” 12 And they said, “Let us give it back, and ask no more from them, we do as you say.” Then I called the priests, and made them swear to do according to this word. 13 I also shook out the fold of my garment and said, “Let Elohim in this way shake out each man from his house, and from his property, who does not do this word, even to be thus shaken out and emptied.” And all the assembly said, “Amĕn!” and praised יהוה. And the people did according to this word. 14 Also, from the day I was commanded to be their governor in the land of Yehuḏah, from the twentieth year until the thirty-second year of Sovereign Artaḥshashta, twelve years, neither I nor my brothers ate the governor’s food. 15 But the former governors who were before me laid burdens on the people, and took from them bread and wine, besides forty sheqels of silver. Their servants also oppressed the people, but I did not do so, because of the fear of Elohim. 16 And I also worked strongly in the work on this wall. We did not buy any land. And all my servants were gathered there for the work. 17 And at my table were one hundred and fifty of the Yehuḏim and deputy rulers, besides those who came to us from the nations around us. 18 And that which was prepared for me daily was one ox and six choice sheep, and birds were prepared for me, and once every ten days plenty of all kinds of wine. And in spite of this I did not seek the governor’s food, because the bondage was heavy on this people. 19 O my Elohim, remember me for the good – all that I have done for this people.

What does this wall of OT text have to do with today, and the way banking is done today? If you don't wish to be "taken advantage" of through usury, then do like they were told in the OT..... don't borrow money. Or borrow from a friend that will not charge interest. Good luck with that.

 

[hornetguy]

This is why I told them, banks have no morals.

Did you truly expect banks to act on a moral basis, or on a basis that makes money for their stockholders?
Let's get real here.... expecting secular business to act according to God's moral code is silliness...

 

[SpeakTruth101]

What does this wall of OT text have to do with today, and the way banking is done today? If you don't wish to be "taken advantage" of through usury, then do like they were told in the OT..... don't borrow money. Or borrow from a friend that will not charge interest. Good luck with that.

I agree people should not even take part in a fixed dishonest deal.

What does it have to do with today? This is the Bible Discussion Forum, it has to do with a similar matter and the Word is here for us to learn from. Silly me for posting Scripture in the BDF...

Again if they crash the market and people are forced to borrow at usury or go homeless, I can't blame someone for doing so, but I can blame those who lend improperly and economocally "pop bubbles"

 

[JohnB]

Did you truly expect banks to act on a moral basis, or on a basis that makes money for their stockholders?
Let's get real here.... expecting secular business to act according to God's moral code is silliness...

Which is why they shouldn't use morals on anyone else. I do believe Jesus would tell me, "What is the law?" The law gives you exemptions.

 

[Magenta]

the best would be to not be a debtor

Yes, of course... but that is not the topic.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Which is why they shouldn't use morals on anyone else. I do believe Jesus would tell me, "What is the law?" The law gives you exemptions.

You give yourself exemptions.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

the best would be to not be a debtor

That would be second best.

The best would be if honestly was common in the world.

 

[JohnDB]

Here is a video that those with even a rudimentary understanding of economics should understand.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Yes, of course... but that is not the topic.

It is part of the discussion, your comment is just picking at that person who said it. We are here to discuss, all have different relevant things to add, well not all. No reason to pick like that, add to the discussion with ideas.