What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?
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PennEd, the distance in understanding between you and me is so wide, as ... as the distance between the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bossom.
The Church does not honor the Theotokos because the Bible says so or because some saints woke up one morning and decided to do so. It is the Bible and the saints that must have relevance in the Church, not viceversa. When the Church decided to form the canon of the Bible, they confronted the written word with the experience of the Church and on that basis the canon was formed. It is not the Bible that gave birth to the Church; it is the Church that gave the Holy Bible (also, the Church gives the correct understanding of the Bible).
The Church represents the new creation assumed and deepened as such in various ways by some people whom the Church later proposed as living models (the saints) of the success of this renewal with metacosmic consequences. Everything starts from the incarnation of God, which opens the possibility for man to receive the gift of deification through grace (becoming god by grace). This gift, however, is a special gift, which collaborates with the freedom of the beneficiary in order to fully embrace the entire being.
The historical destiny of the Church begins with a full deification of the Mother of God as the prototype of humanity's destiny, it is the maximum fruit for human knowledge of the economy of the Incarnation of the Son and the raison d'être of the Church. We hope to happen to us, what happened to Mary (dormition or falling asleep in God and then resurrection).
The cult of Holy Mary and all the other saints are secondary effects of this theological vision that recapitulates the entire divine economy.
The Church does not honor the Theotokos because the Bible says so or because some saints woke up one morning and decided to do so. It is the Bible and the saints that must have relevance in the Church, not viceversa. When the Church decided to form the canon of the Bible, they confronted the written word with the experience of the Church and on that basis the canon was formed. It is not the Bible that gave birth to the Church; it is the Church that gave the Holy Bible (also, the Church gives the correct understanding of the Bible).
The Church represents the new creation assumed and deepened as such in various ways by some people whom the Church later proposed as living models (the saints) of the success of this renewal with metacosmic consequences. Everything starts from the incarnation of God, which opens the possibility for man to receive the gift of deification through grace (becoming god by grace). This gift, however, is a special gift, which collaborates with the freedom of the beneficiary in order to fully embrace the entire being.
The historical destiny of the Church begins with a full deification of the Mother of God as the prototype of humanity's destiny, it is the maximum fruit for human knowledge of the economy of the Incarnation of the Son and the raison d'être of the Church. We hope to happen to us, what happened to Mary (dormition or falling asleep in God and then resurrection).
The cult of Holy Mary and all the other saints are secondary effects of this theological vision that recapitulates the entire divine economy.
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i don't want to start a ruckus... or get in the middle of a ruckus... 
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
i don't want to start a ruckus... or get in the middle of a ruckus...
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
. I know there is a wide spectrum of beliefs, including some who say absolutely nothing is required of us to be considered saved, not even faith. However, I am somewhat stumped as to why anyone would call them self a Calvinist if they do not believe what the man taught. To wit, from Institutes of Christian Religion, 1559 Edition, Chapter 21: We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. source
amen
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
gods will is that all people hear the gospel and believe and be saved it’s really the point of life in this world that people would reach out and find the lord
“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth( Matthew 28:18 ), dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:24-27, 30-31 KJV
Calvinism is an escape from those truths that teach us to repent and how to repent it’s afraid of things like this because it’s going to call the person to repent and start taking their actions serious
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
If I just say nope that’s not true we won’t be judged by our works we are already pre determined saved or lost nothing he said really means anything like this
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:5 KJV
See Jesus is telling them important truth so they know and understand they need to repent but then if we say “ it’s all pre determined nothing yoh can do to change it “ then the teachings we learn about how to live right and how not to live wrong become irrelevant to us based on our wrong idea about us having no role in salvstion Jesus taught us our role …
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
gods will is that all people hear the gospel and believe and be saved it’s really the point of life in this world that people would reach out and find the lord
“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth( Matthew 28:18 ), dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:24-27, 30-31 KJV
Calvinism is an escape from those truths that teach us to repent and how to repent it’s afraid of things like this because it’s going to call the person to repent and start taking their actions serious
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
If I just say nope that’s not true we won’t be judged by our works we are already pre determined saved or lost nothing he said really means anything like this
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:5 KJV
See Jesus is telling them important truth so they know and understand they need to repent but then if we say “ it’s all pre determined nothing yoh can do to change it “ then the teachings we learn about how to live right and how not to live wrong become irrelevant to us based on our wrong idea about us having no role in salvstion Jesus taught us our role …
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i don't want to start a ruckus... or get in the middle of a ruckus...
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
i've been in a lot of Reformed churches, and heard many more sermons preached in Reformed churches online. i think the Smart Guy (TM) term for what you're talking about is "equal ultimacy". (double predestination?)
i HAVE heard it talked about from the pulpit and among the congregations, and every time i've heard it, it's spoken of as unbiblical. i have no statistic, obviously, and my random sampling of a few dozen churches doesn't mean a lot, i guess. just wanted you to know because i love you. ♥
ps-- i woulda thought the L is the most contentious? eh, what do i know! lol
One of the best explanations that I've seen.
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From Acts 17:26-28
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”
1 John 3:1 KJV
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Calvinism being un-Biblical is why it is argued against so much here... especially the U of T.U.L.I.P., as taught by Calvin.
The shed righteous blood of Jesus being sufficient for all but efficacious only unto those who believe...
is that not the essence of the L? .
The shed righteous blood of Jesus being sufficient for all but efficacious only unto those who believe...
is that not the essence of the L? .
arhats a true statement but it’s a summary statement it doesn’t explain grace or faith in any manner of depth or understanding that is elsewhere like grace the grace that saves us is understood better here
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
Titus 2:11-15 KJV
see grace isn’t opposed to good works it is what teaches us to repent of evil deeds and begin to learn to do and love the good things so that when we go to judgement we will hear “welcome my good and faithful servant all this is yours “ even if we fall alot Jesus is able to save us if we don’t reject him but there’s so much more than “ God pre determined everything and nothing else can ever be understood
I don’t know if everyone is a false teacher when they have things wrong but maybe they just didn’t get some things I think calvin has done good points in there but it leads him to make terrible and destructive conclusions that remove parts of doctrine I don’t know if it was intentional but he seems sort of confused at certain points contradicting himself
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I agree so much with what you have said here! Which is not unusual .
Many of the elements of salvation are understood broadly by quite a few, yet the mechanics of it remain
a mystery, in that how exactly or in what order God works the miracle of bringing His enemies to faith...
though drawing us with loving kindness is definitely core for me in my experience, and what Scripture
asserts also. @Cameron143 has a way of explaining the inexplicable that surely surpasses mine...
And I can agree that God could have done what Calvin himself taught, but do not agree that that is what Scripture teaches.
Nor can I agree that nothing is required of us! Or that we are saved apart from faith, as some
members here say. Some errors are just egregious beyond allowing them to go unchallenged.
Many of the elements of salvation are understood broadly by quite a few, yet the mechanics of it remain
a mystery, in that how exactly or in what order God works the miracle of bringing His enemies to faith...
though drawing us with loving kindness is definitely core for me in my experience, and what Scripture
asserts also. @Cameron143 has a way of explaining the inexplicable that surely surpasses mine...
And I can agree that God could have done what Calvin himself taught, but do not agree that that is what Scripture teaches.
Nor can I agree that nothing is required of us! Or that we are saved apart from faith, as some
members here say. Some errors are just egregious beyond allowing them to go unchallenged.
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1
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I agree so much with what you have said here! Which is not unusual .
Many of the elements of salvation are understood broadly by quite a few, yet the mechanics of it remain
a mystery, in that how exactly or in what order God works the miracle of bringing His enemies to faith...
though drawing us with loving kindness is definitely core for me in my experience, and what Scripture
asserts also. @Cameron143 has a way of explaining the inexplicable that surely surpasses mine...
And I can agree that God could have done what Calvin himself taught, but do not agree that that is what Scripture teaches.
Nor can I agree that nothing is required of us! Or that we are saved apart from faith, as some
members here say. Some errors are just egregious beyond allowing them to go unchallenged.
Many of the elements of salvation are understood broadly by quite a few, yet the mechanics of it remain
a mystery, in that how exactly or in what order God works the miracle of bringing His enemies to faith...
though drawing us with loving kindness is definitely core for me in my experience, and what Scripture
asserts also. @Cameron143 has a way of explaining the inexplicable that surely surpasses mine...
And I can agree that God could have done what Calvin himself taught, but do not agree that that is what Scripture teaches.
Nor can I agree that nothing is required of us! Or that we are saved apart from faith, as some
members here say. Some errors are just egregious beyond allowing them to go unchallenged.
yes I agree we become convinced of what ever order we have learned in those massive volumes of scripture but what about the other guy and what knowledge of th scripture the lord has given him ? So much of the new testement is in this personal vein according to what thenindividual knows and understands
If every Christian could let this sink in man we would dissolve a lot of arguments and grudges
“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
Romans 14:1-13
pauls speaking from this
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
even Roman’s chapter 2 where Paul’s talking about eternal judgement he begins by talking about them judging each other guilty while they also have sin they were like we do still looking at the other guy saying he doesn’t know and do what I do so he’s not welcome and approved based on what I myself know and believe
there’s so much in the Bible but we tend to see one form and then reject anything else even if it comes from the same Bible
I think we ( man ) thinks we understand way way more than we actually do and that’s a detriment to us and we seem to weaponize it against each other I don’t know I’m just an old fool myself but it seems like we don’t get it really even though he’s been telling us the same thing always
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Yeah, talking about Emil Brunner. I read most of that yesterday.
Sticking with what Calvin said, and not some misrepresentation:
In The Institutes, Calvin defines this doctrine in the following manner:
Sticking with what Calvin said, and not some misrepresentation:
In The Institutes, Calvin defines this doctrine in the following manner:
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
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