Are gifts evidence of salvation?

[mailmandan]

You don't even know what the gospel really is. I have nothing to repent of. I'm doing the Lord's work trying to correct false, unsaving doctrine such as you're propagating and opening eyes such as yours.

I know exactly what the gospel is. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

You are promoting false, unsaving doctrine and not correcting it. You need to repent of your false gospel and believe the true gospel.

 

[tourist]

Is possession of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit evidence of a saved status?
Example: Does the ability to speak or translate tongues "prove" you are in a saved state?

By itself it does not prove anything.

 

[DJT_47]

I know exactly what the gospel is. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

You are promoting false, unsaving doctrine and not correcting it. You need to repent of your false gospel and believe the true gospel.

What was the gospel as preached to the Ethiopian eunuch by Philip in Acts 8? What did it include? What was exactly preached by Peter to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and what was the result as recorded in Acts 2:38-47? Between these 2 accounts you have the essence of the complete gospel.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism; water immersion y the authority of Jesus Christ (in the name of) for the forgiveness of sins

That's the essence of the gospel. Romans 10 is pretty clear regarding the need to preach it. Preach what? Look at the first example I mentioned, that of the Ethiopian eunuch. How can I be wrong in adhering strictly to what the bible says? How is my message false? It's not. I'm neither adding to or taking away from the word? But are you? You deny baptism as an essential part of the salvation process, which denial is in direct conflict with many scriptures that CLEARLY say otherwise in plain and simple terms. YOU need to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What was the gospel as preached to the Ethiopian eunuch by Philip in Acts 8? What did it include? What was exactly preached by Peter to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and what was the result as recorded in Acts 2:38-47? Between these 2 accounts you have the essence of the complete gospel.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism; water immersion y the authority of Jesus Christ (in the name of) for the forgiveness of sins

That's the essence of the gospel. Romans 10 is pretty clear regarding the need to preach it. Preach what? Look at the first example I mentioned, that of the Ethiopian eunuch. How can I be wrong in adhering strictly to what the bible says? How is my message false? It's not. I'm neither adding to or taking away from the word? But are you? You deny baptism as an essential part of the salvation process, which denial is in direct conflict with many scriptures that CLEARLY say otherwise in plain and simple terms. YOU need to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

Works self righteous gospel here

DJT is trying to save himself. he refuses to repent and be as the tax collector and let God save him.

Don't fall for his false gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

What was the gospel as preached to the Ethiopian eunuch by Philip in Acts 8? What did it include?

Acts 8:35 - Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Water baptism "follows" conversion.

Compare with John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *What happened to baptism? Also, what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29.40.47; 11:25,26? Did Jesus forget to mention it?

What was exactly preached by Peter to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and what was the result as recorded in Acts 2:38-47? Between these 2 accounts you have the essence of the complete gospel.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism; water immersion the authority of Jesus Christ (in the name of) for the forgiveness of sins

Your 4 step plan of salvation is out of order and is a "different" gospel. Repentance precedes belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

That's the essence of the gospel.

That may be the essence of the church of Christ gospel but it's not the essence of the true gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Romans 10 is pretty clear regarding the need to preach it. Preach what? Look at the first example I mentioned, that of the Ethiopian eunuch. How can I be wrong in adhering strictly to what the bible says? How is my message false? It's not. I'm neither adding to or taking away from the word? But are you? You deny baptism as an essential part of the salvation process, which denial is in direct conflict with many scriptures that CLEARLY say otherwise in plain and simple terms. YOU need to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

Have you considered Romans 10:4? Where is your 4 step plan of salvation mentioned there? You are wrong and like I said before, your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. If water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Your handful of verses on baptism that "on the surface" only appear to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation are in direct conflict with numerous verses that CLEARLY teach we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." It's YOU who needs to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

 

[Adstar]

Is possession of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit evidence of a saved status?
Example: Does the ability to speak or translate tongues "prove" you are in a saved state?

While the saved can be given gifts as revealed in the New Testament.. Observing someone do signs is not a sign that they are saved... Because in the last days we are warned there will be Lying signs and wonders performed by unsaved people..

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-12) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Also some will stand before the LORD on judgement day and try to use their doings of signs to convince the LORD they where His..

(Matthew 7:21-23) "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So some people will be doing these signs thinking they are serving the LORD Jesus but will actually be serving deception.. They are going to get a terrible surprise when they face the LORD and find out He never knew them..

 

[DJT_47]

Works self righteous gospel here

DJT is trying to save himself. he refuses to repent and be as the tax collector and let God save him.

Don't fall for his false gospel.

🤣

 

[DJT_47]

Acts 8:35 - Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Water baptism "follows" conversion.

Compare with John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *What happened to baptism? Also, what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29.40.47; 11:25,26? Did Jesus forget to mention it?

Your 4 step plan of salvation is out of order and is a "different" gospel. Repentance precedes belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

That may be the essence of the church of Christ gospel but it's not the essence of the true gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Have you considered Romans 10:4? Where is your 4 step plan of salvation mentioned there? You are wrong and like I said before, your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. If water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Your handful of verses on baptism that "on the surface" only appear to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation are in direct conflict with numerous verses that CLEARLY teach we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." It's YOU who needs to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Can conversion happen if one is still in sin or does conversion happen after sin is removed and you become part of the body of Christ?

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Can conversion happen if one is still in sin or does conversion happen after sin is removed and you become part of the body of Christ?

These verse have already been explained to you numerous times. See post #290 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-simple-version.210666/page-15#post-5075502

Also see post #64 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tles-teach-baptism.195336/page-4#post-4393919

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Can conversion happen if one is still in sin or does conversion happen after sin is removed and you become part of the body of Christ?

See, there you go deflecting again

John 1: 12. But as many as have received him to them he gave the power

John 3, As Moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believes..

John 4, If you would have asked, I would have given you living water flowing to eternal life

John 5, 24 he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

John 6, He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” he who believes in Me has everlasting life, If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Please show us where baptism is required in these passages.

 

[DJT_47]

These verse have already been explained to you numerous times. See post #290 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-simple-version.210666/page-15#post-5075502

Explaining? They are plain English and need no explanation!

 

[mailmandan]

Explaining? They are plain English and need no explanation!

You fail to properly interpret scripture in context and you also fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. So much for your plain English "on the surface" biased interpretation of your pet verses.

 

[DJT_47]

You fail to properly interpret scripture in context and you also fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. So much for your plain English "on the surface" biased interpretation of your pet verses.

Your words are exactly that: just your words. Nonsense. Nothing to interpret in those verses of scripture, nothing to explain as they are self explanatory. I'm sure when people were preached the gospel in biblical times by the deciples, they had to sit down with everyone and elaborately explain or reexplain what they were telling them as they preached. Yes, they got out all their elaborate documents which included unique definitions and clarifications so the hearers of the word really understood what they were being told! Your logic is beyond silly. I have nothing more to say to you nor your minions like Mr. everlasting nonsense. Goodbye 👋

 

[mailmandan]

Your words are exactly that: just your words. Nonsense. Nothing to interpret in those verses of scripture, nothing to explain as they are self explanatory. I'm sure when people were preached the gospel in biblical times by the deciples, they had to sit down with everyone and elaborately explain or reexplain what they were telling them as they preached. Yes, they got out all their elaborate documents which included unique definitions and clarifications so the hearers of the word really understood what they were being told! Your logic is beyond silly. I have nothing more to say to you nor your minions like Mr. everlasting nonsense. Goodbye 👋

Typical thoroughly indoctrinated Campbellite.

Since your pet verses in regard to baptism "on the surface" merely "appear" to teach what you claim, should we also interpret John 6:54-56 to mean that we literally eat Jesus' flesh and literally drink His blood when we partake of the Lord's supper? Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. So the correct interpretation results in cannibalism? Is that plain English as well? Roman Catholics seem to believe so which has resulted in the false doctrine of transubstantiation.

Yet, Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life.

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as the result is the same, eternal life.

*HERMENEUTICS*

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Explaining? They are plain English and need no explanation!

The bible was not written in english.

So yes they do need explaining. and you also have to explain WHY they contradict others passages. Like all the ones I showed you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Typical thoroughly indoctrinated Campbellite.

Since your pet verses in regard to baptism "on the surface" merely "appear" to teach what you claim, should we also interpret John 6:54-56 to mean that we literally eat Jesus' flesh and literally drink His blood when we partake of the Lord's supper? Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. So the correct interpretation results in cannibalism? Is that plain English as well? Roman Catholics seem to believe so which has resulted in the false doctrine of transubstantiation.

Yet, Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life.

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as the result is the same, eternal life.

*HERMENEUTICS*

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

Some people just can't see beyond what they have been taught

 

[mailmandan]

Some people just can't see beyond what they have been taught

It's called indoctrination.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's called indoctrination.

You usually can see it by the way they react to those who disagree with them..

They respond with Anger, Attacking, Name calling etc etc..

typical phariseeism

 

[Musicmaster]

It's a formula that is used by the church of Christ, which DJT_47 happens to be a member of.

Faith and Repentance (cofcdilemma.org)
Answers for Church of Christ beliefs (cofcdilemma.org)

The church of Christ multi-step salvation formula is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics and culminates in a "different" gospel.

I once debated a CoC pastor on Eschatology, and he had more "non-answers" that violated almost every rule for interpretation and hermeneutics than he had answers, not to mention a few logical fallacies to boot.

Then he wanted to talk about the false teaching about the alleged requirement to tithe, and I brought him to silence on that one too.

Then he attacked my working as a DJ in a radio station on Saturdays since I was a local radio personality on a Christian station, and that went south for him also...especially when I asked him what would happen if he stopped preaching on Sabbath, and he admitted that he would be fired. I then asked him if being fired means that he would also no longer get a paycheck from that organization, and he said yes. It was less than a minute before he realized that I had just proven that even he is paid for what he does on Sabbath. He tried to back-pedal by claiming that the majority of all his duties are carried out throughout the rest of the week, and yet refusal to work at preaching on Sabbath was/is a fireable offense. Needless to say, he never could get out from under that one.

He made the mistake in thinking that I was a dumb hick at the time just because I was wearing overalls...judging this book by its cover at that time. Every denomination and alleged non-denomination has items against which they cannot defend when it comes to digging out the inconsistencies and hypocrisies!

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

What was the gospel as preached to the Ethiopian eunuch by Philip in Acts 8? What did it include? What was exactly preached by Peter to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and what was the result as recorded in Acts 2:38-47? Between these 2 accounts you have the essence of the complete gospel.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism; water immersion y the authority of Jesus Christ (in the name of) for the forgiveness of sins

That's the essence of the gospel. Romans 10 is pretty clear regarding the need to preach it. Preach what? Look at the first example I mentioned, that of the Ethiopian eunuch. How can I be wrong in adhering strictly to what the bible says? How is my message false? It's not. I'm neither adding to or taking away from the word? But are you? You deny baptism as an essential part of the salvation process, which denial is in direct conflict with many scriptures that CLEARLY say otherwise in plain and simple terms. YOU need to rethink your beliefs which are not in line with the word of God.

Philip was speaking to a former pagan, and so he gave that man what he could in the short time he had with the man!

What REALLY does it take to bring others to maturity? Discipleship...face to face, over a period of time, right? He knew he would have no such luxury with that Ethiopian, so he equipped him as best he could, and to pretend as though that is the absolute formula that works for everyone... Really? Philip, filled with Holy Spirit gave to that man what Holy Spirit directed, and I challenge ANYONE to find in that formula, in its context, a revelation that the formula therein is what is to be preached to all the world!

Come on! Please! Let's remain biblical while exercising EXegetical (extracted from) analysis rather than EISegetical (injected into) analysis.

MM