Are gifts evidence of salvation?

[DJT_47]

The use of God given reason.

“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!
(Luke 15:17)

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, (Romans 2:14-15)

And many, many more.

Romans 10 and specifically verse 17

 

[Blade]

The holy Spirit is not part of confusion. If I am reading His word right then only those who believer in trust in are followers of Christ can receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Peter told them as they came out and everyone thought they were drunk but all not a few all were filled with the holy Spirit and if you have been then you know exactly what happen to them since it has happened to you before. So repent be baptized and then receive the gift of the holy Spirit. So you can be saved and not be filled. You can tell the difference.

The dead Churches were told are normal vs those spirit filed ones get made fun of. The holy spirit is not here where doubt is where He is grieved. I remember still Kenneth Hagin on TBN talking about the gift of the holy spirit saying "if you don't believe praise GOD". Yeah you believe in trust in Jesus Christ that's what matters. Never once did he make fun of anyone that didn't believe you were still family.

You can tell those who are filled vs are not. You just never feel welcome.

 

[Musicmaster]

Born again by being obedient and following the commands given in order to be born again.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism, immersion in water

Doing the above you will be born again

I've seen others relegate the new birth down to various formulas, but didn't really see them as credible since they most generally were not all-inclusive as what we see in the word of Christ:

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

When we look at the context, we see this:

John 3:1-7
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

No formula for commandments or anything else. I'm making a point of this because far too many messages out there seem to be rooting and grounding spiritual things into the corrupt soils of works-based ideologies. Keeping the commandments are a matter of loving Christ, just as He said. Being born again is a matter of not only water, but also Spirit:

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

So, "water" is symbolic of Holy Spirit, and fire...is said to be an idiom from the ancient dialects, referring to a difficulty in transition. We today even use that idiom when addressing the idea of people "passing through the fires of trial," such as an initiation right, or boot camp, or any number of other internal changes that is the target in the sights of the one directing the change. We've even heard of the "fires of testing." The testing

2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others.

James 1:3 ...knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

We could traverse many a rabbit hole on this topic into myriads of other realities in the topic of being born again. That's jus to say that it's not so simplistic to be rendered down to the level of cliche's and formulas.

Thanks for the deeper look into this.

MM

 

[Karlon]

Actually assuming the atheist is a true atheist not an angry rebellious prodigal claiming atheism . God will break the true atheist down over time because of their pride . Once the atheist can no longer rely on the things of this world to fulfill him he has to come to terms with his depraved state and then when everything around him has failed and he has been humbled the atheist now has ears to hear God speak into his heart now that his idols have failed him. God has to often break people down before He can build them up. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble “

God will bless ANYONE no matter what the condition. i know a guy who is an atheist. this person is an absolute terrible person. he's rich, retired, and tries to control people. he's extremely selfish, lazy & does what he wants when he wants. he's a singer, not to good & in his 2nd band ever, little by little he tried to control the band. he has quite the bad name in the music business & he doesn't even care. i taught him so much & he just doesn't listen. he's like a guy who was handed a million dollars & flushed it! but he's been blessed with money. his father died recently & inherited more money. his dad was stock investor. in the band he was in, he was the only one that did not work & he was the slowest one in learning the songs!!! unbelievable!!!

 

[DJT_47]

The holy Spirit is not part of confusion. If I am reading His word right then only those who believer in trust in are followers of Christ can receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Peter told them as they came out and everyone thought they were drunk but all not a few all were filled with the holy Spirit and if you have been then you know exactly what happen to them since it has happened to you before. So repent be baptized and then receive the gift of the holy Spirit. So you can be saved and not be filled. You can tell the difference.

The dead Churches were told are normal vs those spirit filed ones get made fun of. The holy spirit is not here where doubt is where He is grieved. I remember still Kenneth Hagin on TBN talking about the gift of the holy spirit saying "if you don't believe praise GOD". Yeah you believe in trust in Jesus Christ that's what matters. Never once did he make fun of anyone that didn't believe you were still family.

You can tell those who are filled vs are not. You just never feel welcome.

Above you said . "So repent be baptized and then receive the gift of the holy Spirit. So you can be saved and not be filled. You can tell the difference."

Yes, true repent and be baptized to be saved (not sure what you meant by the rest however)

Notice in that verse of scripture it says you will receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost or Spirit. This is what's stated in Acts 2:38. But it's the gift (singular) of the Holy Ghost/Spirit not gifts (plural) or a gift, one of those miraculous manifestations of the Spirit recorded in 1 Cor 12:8-10, but the gift of the Spirit itself: the indwelling of the Spirit within you.

And note too you referenced the falling of the Holy Ghost/Spirit from Acts 2. It fell on the APOSTLES whom it was solely meant for as a sign of the power from on high as was promised to them as recorded in Luke 24:49, who then spoke in earthly tongues which ultimately resulted in the belief of the Jews present who were then told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and to receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost as aforementioned.

 

[DJT_47]

I've seen others relegate the new birth down to various formulas, but didn't really see them as credible since they most generally were not all-inclusive as what we see in the word of Christ:

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

When we look at the context, we see this:

John 3:1-7
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

No formula for commandments or anything else. I'm making a point of this because far too many messages out there seem to be rooting and grounding spiritual things into the corrupt soils of works-based ideologies. Keeping the commandments are a matter of loving Christ, just as He said. Being born again is a matter of not only water, but also Spirit:

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

So, "water" is symbolic of Holy Spirit, and fire...is said to be an idiom from the ancient dialects, referring to a difficulty in transition. We today even use that idiom when addressing the idea of people "passing through the fires of trial," such as an initiation right, or boot camp, or any number of other internal changes that is the target in the sights of the one directing the change. We've even heard of the "fires of testing." The testing

2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others.

James 1:3 ...knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

We could traverse many a rabbit hole on this topic into myriads of other realities in the topic of being born again. That's jus to say that it's not so simplistic to be rendered down to the level of cliche's and formulas.

Thanks for the deeper look into this.

MM

It's not a "formula" it's simply the elements required fir salvation and it's usually and naturally in thus order. You gotta hear the word and believe first a d thereby have faith. You must confess to your belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 which is consistent with Romans 10:9 as a requirement, logically following belief, you must repent as was told to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38, and you must be baptized for the remission of your sins also as was told to the Jews in Acts 2:38. A "formula"? Or simply the short list of what you must do to be saved in a natural order as they would typically occur.

 

[Musicmaster]

It's not a "formula" it's simply the elements required fir salvation and it's usually and naturally in thus order. You gotta hear the word and believe first a d thereby have faith. You must confess to your belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 which is consistent with Romans 10:9 as a requirement, logically following belief, you must repent as was told to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38, and you must be baptized for the remission of your sins also as was told to the Jews in Acts 2:38. A "formula"? Or simply the short list of what you must do to be saved in a natural order as they would typically occur.

By any other definition, that's a formula. I already demonstrated what scripture actually says as a counter to denominational dogmas that say otherwise. The thief on the cross did none of those formula items you numbered, and he was that day with Christ in paradise.

Thanks for the feedback.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

By any other definition, that's a formula. I already demonstrated what scripture actually says as a counter to denominational dogmas that say otherwise. The thief on the cross did none of those formula items you numbered, and he was that day with Christ in paradise.

Thanks for the feedback.

MM

The below is something I posted previously which would apply to this discussion.

Thread 'The thief on the cross misconceptions' https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-thief-on-the-cross-misconceptions.51284/

 

[Lamar]

I'm simply expounding the scripture.

No, you are surmising.

Either faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God or it doesn't.

Agreed. Faith comes because we listen to the word of God. God presents His word to anyone who will listen. No one is prodded into listening.

 

[Musicmaster]

The below is something I posted previously which would apply to this discussion.

Thread 'The thief on the cross misconceptions' https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-thief-on-the-cross-misconceptions.51284/

Thanks for the link. However, I don't buy it. The establishment of the new covenant was completed in the passing of the cup of the new covenant, and the completion of the redemption was established at the point when He said, "It is finished." So, the New Covenant was in force and functional before that thief repented and called upon the Lord to remember him.

Luke 22:20 Likewise He also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup [is] the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Not some other cup or event or observance, but the passing of THAT cup was the point of establishment.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same manner [He] also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink [it], in remembrance of Me."

It is afterward that the completion of the atonement was established, which is the total and complete remission of the sins of the faithful. The Law of Moses required sacrifices and observances, which both thieves likely did in varying degrees, and so the old covenant was no longer or any impact for what took place on that cross.

MM

 

[FollowingtheWay]

God will bless ANYONE no matter what the condition. i know a guy who is an atheist. this person is an absolute terrible person. he's rich, retired, and tries to control people. he's extremely selfish, lazy & does what he wants when he wants. he's a singer, not to good & in his 2nd band ever, little by little he tried to control the band. he has quite the bad name in the music business & he doesn't even care. i taught him so much & he just doesn't listen. he's like a guy who was handed a million dollars & flushed it! but he's been blessed with money. his father died recently & inherited more money. his dad was stock investor. in the band he was in, he was the only one that did not work & he was the slowest one in learning the songs!!! unbelievable!!!

Have ya shown him the Johnny Cash Story? As a musician he might respond to that. it’s only temporarily. As Johnny Cash sang
Gods going to cut him down .only a matter of time and The humbling is coming, if not now at the end when it it’s all taken away.

 

[DJT_47]

Thanks for the link. However, I don't buy it. The establishment of the new covenant was completed in the passing of the cup of the new covenant, and the completion of the redemption was established at the point when He said, "It is finished." So, the New Covenant was in force and functional before that thief repented and called upon the Lord to remember him.

Luke 22:20 Likewise He also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup [is] the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Not some other cup or event or observance, but the passing of THAT cup was the point of establishment.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same manner [He] also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink [it], in remembrance of Me."

It is afterward that the completion of the atonement was established, which is the total and complete remission of the sins of the faithful. The Law of Moses required sacrifices and observances, which both thieves likely did in varying degrees, and so the old covenant was no longer or any impact for what took place on that cross.

MM

Doesn't matter if you buy it or not, the words say what they say and establish when. Hebrews is clear. You're in disagreement with what it says, not me. I simply brought it to the attention of those that weren't aware, for their edification, and yours too. Believe what you like.

 

[Musicmaster]

Doesn't matter if you buy it or not, the words say what they say and establish when. Hebrews is clear. You're in disagreement with what it says, not me. I simply brought it to the attention of those that weren't aware, for their edification, and yours too. Believe what you like.

Oh, please don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with what the Bible says.

What I disagreed with were the lines of parallel and correlations that you personally draw within the scriptures that originated from within your own thinking rather than what the scriptures say.

Just wanted to be sure and make that clarification.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

Oh, please don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with what the Bible says.

What I disagreed with were the lines of parallel and correlations that you personally draw within the scriptures that originated from within your own thinking rather than what the scriptures say.

Just wanted to be sure and make that clarification.

MM

I just follow the scriptures carefully to where they lead without preconceived bias

 

[mailmandan]

No need to bring up Balaam's donkey, just bring up the verses.

It's folks who attend the church of Christ that typically bring up Balaam's donkey in their efforts to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and were saved before water baptism.

Here is the text:

Acts 10:43-47
New King James Version
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

The evidence from the text is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid these Gentiles from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13)

No mention of them believing the gospel, repenting of sins or confessing Jesus as Lord. Most of all no mention of them being saved.

What do you think believes in Him means? Not believing the gospel? Try again. Those who believe in Him have already repented in the process of changing their minds and choosing to believe in Him. In Acts 11:17-18, Peter is referring back to the event that took place in acts 10:43-47 and states: If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” When they heard these things, they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.

Repentance and believes in Him are two sides to the same coin. When repentance is mentioned unto salvation in scripture, belief/faith is implied or assumed. When belief/faith is mentioned unto salvation in scripture, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. Not so with water baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but not yet be water baptized. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10)

Those of the house of Cornelius were still water baptized so that their sins would be forgiven, they were not an exception.

False. The house of Cornelius was water baptized AFTER their sins were forgiven upon believing in Him. (Acts 10:43)

The recording of Peter's insistence on their need for water baptism is quite telling.

The recording of Peter's connection of remission of sins with believes in Him and not water baptism in Acts 10:43 is quite telling. Also, the recording of Peter asking the question, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” is also quite telling. Again, these Gentiles believed, received remission of sins, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tonges (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. To disregard this crystal-clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest.

You are simply trying to shoehorn faith alone regeneration theology into these verses.

You are simply trying to "shoehorn" water baptism "into" believes in Him (Acts 10:43) but the shoe does not fit. Only faith in Christ alone for salvation saves and faith in water baptism for salvation is not faith in Christ alone for salvation.

Only certain groups of Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues is proof of salvation, are you one of them?

Are you saying that lost unbelievers also receive the spiritual gift of tongues along with the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. If one has received the Holy Spirit, they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer and such was the case of the house of Cornelius before they were water baptized.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Because they received the Holy Spirit, these Gentiles abided in God and God abided in them. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer and such was the case of the house of Cornelius before they were water baptized.

We do not receive the gift of tongues, which is only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:4-12), without first receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit). We don't receive "a" gift "of" the Holy Spirit until we first receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and the house of Cornelius clearly received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not a Calvinist because I believe God initiates salvation. It is clearly taught in scripture. Jesus Himself said no one would come to Him except the Father draw them. Romans 3 teaches that no one seeks after God. Given those scriptures, it is necessary for God to initiate with grace..

Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief, (John 3:18) saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to saving belief in Christ comes from the Father.

 

[mailmandan]

By any other definition, that's a formula. I already demonstrated what scripture actually says as a counter to denominational dogmas that say otherwise. The thief on the cross did none of those formula items you numbered, and he was that day with Christ in paradise.

Thanks for the feedback.

MM

It's a formula that is used by the church of Christ, which DJT_47 happens to be a member of.

Faith and Repentance (cofcdilemma.org)
Answers for Church of Christ beliefs (cofcdilemma.org)

The church of Christ multi-step salvation formula is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics and culminates in a "different" gospel.

 

[DJT_47]

It's a formula that is used by the church of Christ, which DJT_47 happens to be a member of.

Faith and Repentance (cofcdilemma.org)
Answers for Church of Christ beliefs (cofcdilemma.org)

The church of Christ multi-step salvation formula is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics and culminates in a "different" gospel.

Just more 3rd class junk mail for the garbage can

 

[mailmandan]

Just more 3rd class junk mail for the garbage can

The sword of the Spirit hurts when it cuts. Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel.

 

[DJT_47]

The sword of the Spirit hurts when it cuts. Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel.

You don't even know what the gospel really is. I have nothing to repent of. I'm doing the Lord's work trying to correct false, unsaving doctrine such as you're propagating and opening eyes such as yours.