Revelation Proportions Observed

[Musicmaster]

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" is in the NT texts, and it appears 74 time.

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many time the noun "saints" is in the NT texts, and it appears 63 times.

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "church" appears in those chapters ZERO times...suddenly absent...nadda!

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "saints" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "saints" appears 13 times, but NOT "Church."

What's the big deal about this?

Well, either John, one of the twelve, and the Lord suddenly lost any tast for calling the Church the Church in those chapters of Revelation, or the proportions and utter silence tell us something, considering that the Church is addressed more than "saints" throughout all the NT.

Take that in whatever way you wish, according to personal dogmas, but this is an interesting set of statistics that screams at anyone who seeks to look deeper into the scriptures than just merely reading them like a romance novel.

What do you see in these statistical indicators?

As for me, I'll await your inputs. Numbers throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, have always given to us indicators of importance. Numbers have meaning.

What say you?

MM

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you see in these statistical indicators?

Without making it too complicated, the absence of the words "church" and "churches" from Rev 6-19 is positive confirmation that the Church is in Heaven during that time. And there are several sound reasons for that.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" is in the NT texts, and it appears 74 time.

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many time the noun "saints" is in the NT texts, and it appears 63 times.

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "church" appears in those chapters ZERO times...suddenly absent...nadda!

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "saints" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "saints" appears 13 times, but NOT "Church."

What's the big deal about this?

Well, either John, one of the twelve, and the Lord suddenly lost any tast for calling the Church the Church in those chapters of Revelation, or the proportions and utter silence tell us something, considering that the Church is addressed more than "saints" throughout all the NT.

Take that in whatever way you wish, according to personal dogmas, but this is an interesting set of statistics that screams at anyone who seeks to look deeper into the scriptures than just merely reading them like a romance novel.

What do you see in these statistical indicators?

As for me, I'll await your inputs. Numbers throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, have always given to us indicators of importance. Numbers have meaning.

What say you?

Well, like you said, the word saints appears many times in the New Testament, so the fact John refers to saints in Revelation as opposed to church isn't any big deal.

 

[selahsays]

Without making it too complicated, the absence of the words "church" and "churches" from Rev 6-19 is positive confirmation that the Church is in Heaven during that time. And there are several sound reasons for that.

So are you saying then that you are not one the elect? Notice what happens happens when the bottomless pit is opened in Revelation 9:2:

[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.What is the first thing that arises out of the pit? It’s a cloud of dark smoke (read deception) that you can't see any truth anywhere.​

[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.​

LOCUSTS? You mean insects? Nooo …. now I truly hope you don’t think these are real insects. Understand, you can't "see" a lie. …And you can't see it devour someone's chance to see the truth. So here, we are talking about the enemies of God and these “locusts“ are like a bunch of insects. Are we supposed to be afraid of them? No, because we’re suited up in our gospel armor all wrapped around us. Jesus Christ has given us His own “two-edged Sword” —and the power to wield it!​

Luke 10:19​

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.​

(back to Revelation, ch. 9—It’s made clear in verse 4 that the sealed of God/the elect/the church aren’t sitting around on some fluffy cloud watching “the great tribulation episodes” going on down below on the earth.)​

​

[4] And it was commanded them (the “locusts”) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.​

​

Do you have the seal of God in your forehead? Do you remember in Mark 13:20 and Matthew 24:22 concerning this great tribulation period that Jesus said He was going to shorten the length of time, otherwise no flesh would be saved?​

​

Mark 13:20​

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.​

Hey folks, the church ain’t going anywhere. We’re staying put to stand up for Jesus until the very end and we ”hear” that 7th trumpet blowing and we see our Messiah returning as King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So are you saying then that you are not one the elect?

That's called jumping to wild conclusions. The term "the elect" applies to several groups or several individuals. The term "the Church" applies to a very specific group.

Do you have the seal of God in your forehead?

What a silly question. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13)

Hey folks, the church ain’t going anywhere. We’re staying put to stand up for Jesus until the very end and we ”hear” that 7th trumpet blowing and we see our Messiah returning as King of kings and Lord

Another clueless poster. The 7th trumpet is to announce the WRATH OF GOD in its most severe form. Not the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[selahsays]

That's called jumping to wild conclusions. The term "the elect" applies to several groups or several individuals. The term "the Church" applies to a very specific group.
What a silly question. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13)
Another clueless poster. The 7th trumpet is to announce the WRATH OF GOD in its most severe form. Not the Second Coming of Christ.

@Nehemiah6
As a Christian man, you really need to stop the name calling. This only shows your immaturity; instead, learn to defend your views with Scripture.

At the 7th trumpet, not only do we see the wrath of God; we see our Messiah return, and this happens:

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 1 Corinthians 15:52-57

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

- Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, like you said, the word saints appears many times in the New Testament, so the fact John refers to saints in Revelation as opposed to church isn't any big deal.

It's more than just that, RA. It's much, much more than that.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

So are you saying then that you are not one the elect? Notice what happens happens when the bottomless pit is opened in Revelation 9:2:

[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.What is the first thing that arises out of the pit? It’s a cloud of dark smoke (read deception) that you can't see any truth anywhere.​

[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.​

LOCUSTS? You mean insects? Nooo …. now I truly hope you don’t think these are real insects. Understand, you can't "see" a lie. …And you can't see it devour someone's chance to see the truth. So here, we are talking about the enemies of God and these “locusts“ are like a bunch of insects. Are we supposed to be afraid of them? No, because we’re suited up in our gospel armor all wrapped around us. Jesus Christ has given us His own “two-edged Sword” —and the power to wield it!​

Luke 10:19​

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.​

(back to Revelation, ch. 9—It’s made clear in verse 4 that the sealed of God/the elect/the church aren’t sitting around on some fluffy cloud watching “the great tribulation episodes” going on down below on the earth.)​

​

[4] And it was commanded them (the “locusts”) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.​

​

Do you have the seal of God in your forehead? Do you remember in Mark 13:20 and Matthew 24:22 concerning this great tribulation period that Jesus said He was going to shorten the length of time, otherwise no flesh would be saved?​

​

Mark 13:20​

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.​

Hey folks, the church ain’t going anywhere. We’re staying put to stand up for Jesus until the very end and we ”hear” that 7th trumpet blowing and we see our Messiah returning as King of kings and Lord of lords. View attachment 254529

As I've said many times, those who consider themselves to be counted among those upon whom the wrath of God is to be poured out upon, and who are therefore reserved for wrath, go for it. The Vatican has for many years taught its followers that they will all be here for the Tribulation, so if that's what people want, then I'll root for them all, cheering their steadfastness for suffering.

What's also telling is your tactical approach to this, painting a negative portrait of the Church's presence in the celebration in Heaven with negative, condescending colors of language. Fluffy clouds...watching it all like a movie? Where is it written that the Church in Heaven would be sitting around watching the events on earth?

Your vision of it all might make for a great B movie from the studios of Bollywood, but it can't be said to have seated itself in scripture. The scoffing in these last days were foretold long ago:

2 Peter 3:3-7
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of creation."
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world [that] then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth [which] are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

MM

 

[selahsays]

What's also telling is your tactical approach to this, painting a negative portrait of the Church's presence in the celebration in Heaven with negative, condescending colors of language. Fluffy clouds...watching it all like a movie? Where is it written that the Church in Heaven would be sitting around watching the events on earth?

… but see, my point is that the Church is not in the “fluffy clouds.” The Christians who are alive during the great tribulation are the Church. The Church are the saints, the Elect. The Church is not flying away in a pretrib rapture.

 

[Musicmaster]

@Nehemiah6
As a Christian man, you really need to stop the name calling. This only shows your immaturity; instead, learn to defend your views with Scripture.

At the 7th trumpet, not only do we see the wrath of God; we see our Messiah return, and this happens:

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 1 Corinthians 15:52-57

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

- Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)

The problem with your rearrangement of the timeline is that, in your framework, there will be no elect left to go into the Millennium kingdom if they are all transformed into their glorified bodies. Those in glorified bodies won't be having babies in the Millennium, and so there won't be any left to rebel with Satan at the end of the Millennium, which renders Revelation as being filled with falsehoods.

Sorry, but your scenarios don't fit what's written. Quoting scripture in posts don't make the claims in the posts true. If you see suffering the horrors of the Tribulation as being the "blessed hope," then go for it. You can have it. As for me, I continue to pray as Jesus commanded in Luke 21:36, and no, that entire section was/is not all in relation to 70 AD, contrary to the assumptions of partial and complete Preterists, but, hey, those who wish to believe such are certainly free to do so. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about all this.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

… but see, my point is that the Church is not in the “fluffy clouds.” The Christians who are alive during the great tribulation are the Church. The Church are the saints, the Elect. The Church is not flying away in a pretrib rapture.

Then you are arguing from silence, given that mention of the ecclesia is completely absent in the chapters that describe who the inhabitants are in all those chapters. Transliterating "saints" as always being a reference to the Church is not at all consistent with the rules of hermeneutical analysis of the texts. What you seem to be missing is the Greek. Those who know far more about the Greek texts and language simply don't agree with you.

Those who pass into the Tribulation are not a part of the Church, and the silence in the text of those chapters give ample evidence for this. This is based upon the fact that what is said is just as important as what is not said in the biblical texts. The eisegetical practice of injecting the Church into those chapters is highly suspect to say the least, especially given what is said elsewhere.

MM

 

[selahsays]

The problem with your rearrangement of the timeline is that, in your framework, there will be no elect left to go into the Millennium kingdom if they are all transformed into their glorified bodies. Those in glorified bodies won't be having babies in the Millennium, and so there won't be any left to rebel with Satan at the end of the Millennium, which renders Revelation as being filled with falsehoods.

Sorry, but your scenarios don't fit what's written. Quoting scripture in posts don't make the claims in the posts true. If you see suffering the horrors of the Tribulation as being the "blessed hope," then go for it. You can have it. As for me, I continue to pray as Jesus commanded in Luke 21:36, and no, that entire section was/is not all in relation to 70 AD, contrary to the assumptions of partial and complete Preterists, but, hey, those who wish to believe such are certainly free to do so. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about all this.

MM

The Elect do go into the Millennium. Not only that, they will partake of the First Resurrection.

You are right; there won’t be any physical marriage and babies being born in the Millennium.

Everybody in the Millennium will be in spiritual bodies. Do you think spiritual bodies are weak?

Are you saying that the book of Revelation is “filled with falsehoods?”

 

[Musicmaster]

The Elect do go into the Millennium. Not only that, they will partake of the First Resurrection.

You are right; there won’t be any physical marriage and babies being born in the Millennium.

Everybody in the Millennium will be in spiritual bodies. Do you think spiritual bodies are weak?

Are you saying that the book of Revelation is “filled with falsehoods?”

You're missing the forest for the trees.

Who are those people, then, who rebel at the end of the Millennium with Satan? Are you saying they are the elect? Please clarify.

MM

 

[selahsays]

Then you are arguing from silence, given that mention of the ecclesia is completely absent in the chapters that describe who the inhabitants are in all those chapters. Transliterating "saints" as always being a reference to the Church is not at all consistent with the rules of hermeneutical analysis of the texts. What you seem to be missing is the Greek. Those who know far more about the Greek texts and language simply don't agree with you.

Those who pass into the Tribulation are not a part of the Church, and the silence in the text of those chapters give ample evidence for this. This is based upon the fact that what is said is just as important as what is not said in the biblical texts. The eisegetical practice of injecting the Church into those chapters is highly suspect to say the least, especially given what is said elsewhere.

MM

We’ll just have to agree to disagree, I’m so sorry to say.

 

[selahsays]

You're missing the forest for the trees.

Who are those people, then, who rebel at the end of the Millennium with Satan? Are you saying they are the elect? Please clarify.

MM

Those are all the demons and fallen angels—the “locusts”—they’re Satan’s helpers.

 

[selahsays]

The Elect are the ones who will be delivered up whereby the Holy Spirit will speak through them. Also, the Two Witnesses will be witnessing.

"But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. "And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

- Mark 13:9-13

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well, like you said, the word saints appears many times in the New Testament, so the fact John refers to saints in Revelation as opposed to church isn't any big deal.

Actually it is a big deal. John is reflecting what Daniel says in his prophecy, where he uses the word "saints" repeatedly in chapter 7. Daniel had no clue about the Church. Daniel's prophecy is about his people -- the Jews.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As a Christian man, you really need to stop the name calling. This only shows your immaturity; instead, learn to defend your views with Scripture.

I accurately called you a "clueless poster" since you have no clue about these prophecies. You inaccurately identified the purpose of the 7th trumpet as announcing the Second Coming of Christ.

No, it does not show my immaturity, but it does show your lack of humility in not acknowledging that you are clueless in this regard. Sometimes Christians should simply say "I have no clue" and sit back. It is a MORE THAN VALID conclusion to say that the Church is absent from the earth from Revelation 6-19.

 

[Musicmaster]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree, I’m so sorry to say.

We have more than disagreed. The tangible acid in your words by way of utterly misrepresenting what others believe lends ample indication that you are not willing discuss the topic without copious amounts of misrepresentation of what the others believe. The fallacious content in your posts are a striking departure from all the others here believe, from what I've seen so far. That's sad.

MM

 

[JaumeJ]

I read Revelation, but never have I ventured to interpret its meaning. I do believe I understand some of it, which is a lot for any person to expect.
Reading others giving varied commentaries and interpretations of Revelation makes me shudder.
Un less God gives the understanding and the order to share it, I believe, I fear, many are adding to or taking away from the prophecies of the Book.
All please, beware of doing such. God bless all.