What does that simple question reveal?
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I don't think you really understand the meaning of "saved" since you just contradicted Acts 16:31. That's what happens when people don't understand water baptism either.
That's true, but at the same time I wouldn't expect much patience from most people when you continue to repeat this same [false] premise-
-as the details of the account have crucial bearing on how the question is understood.
My point was that you are presently demonstrating the same stubbornness that you were attributing to other people by insisting on this false premise- how are you gonna tell people what to focus on when you have this kind of plank in your eye?
... and while I'm here; I might as well bring this up- Luke 24 says:
....And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
"Should be" is not the same as "would be". This is actually one of the instances where the KJV is better than other translations; so, I don't know how you come to the conclusion that this is some prediction about a new water baptism on Pentecost- when it's not even a prediction at all; it's an imperative. He didn't say "Baptism in my name will begin at Jerusalem" or even "remission of sins will begin at Jerusalem"- Jesus had been preaching repentance and remission of sins his entire ministry. He's saying "Now you guys go preach the gospel to the world- starting with Jerusalem".
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Steps of faith are seen in each of the detailed conversion experiences; Acts 2:37-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16. The people heard, believed and obeyed commands revealed in the gospel message.
The point was specific to Paul's question, not what followed. The question indicates that believing does not automatically, in and of itself, result in a person being indwelt by the Holy Ghost.
The Samaritan conversion reveals this truth as well. See Acts 8:12-18. Note specifically verses 15, 17, and 18. The group received the Holy Ghost days after they believed the gospel message and were baptized in water in the name of Jesus.
Whether you see it or not, the truth is in that question. I keep bringing it up because whether or not a person is indwelt with the Holy Ghost is such a crucial point; there are eternal consequences.
Paul asked the group of men IF they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed. In other words have you guys received the Holy Ghost yet? Clearly, Paul understood that at times there was a delay in people receiving the Holy Ghost. If not he would not have asked the question in the first place. And as in all cases the word confirms itself. See the Samaritan account (Acts 8:12-18) Take note of verses 15, 17 and 18 specifically.
As to Luke 24:47, when was a message presented for the first time in Jerusalem linking the name of Jesus with repentance and remission of sin other than on the Day of Pentecost? (Acts 2:2-38) The message according to Jesus should be preached among all nations.
Luke 24:46-47
And (Jesus) said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
I share scripture in the hopes that others will at least study out what they reveal. Sadly important factors are overlooked because they are rarely even brought up.
Acts 8 is the gospel moving from jerusalem/judea to the Samaritans (this was another mini pentecost event inline with the great comission (which the book of Acts follows as the gospels spread just like the imperative given by Jesus).
The Apostles hearing of this arrive on the scene bearing public witness with their delegated power and authority from Christ, that now the samritans are also included into the covenant people... Acts 10 etc demonstrates the same. Mini pentecost event with the gentiles.
And now 'all people' or all the world are in the covenat if they believe.
There is now no waiting for an apostle to publicly verify that a people group is now 'in'.
People now come to faith as we see in the rest of acts (ch 16,17,18) and the rest of the NT by the work of the Holy Spirit... Both by an outward call (the gospel) and an inward renewing (new birth) both these actions bring a response of faith.
Acts 19 can be seen as jew and gentile xoming together as 1 people of God, as the apostle paul reiterates not a few times in his letters. Luke being an associate of Paul would have known this.
Again, water baptism does not regenerate nor save. I would stipulate that it is extremely important as water baptism is a sign and seal of the new covenant but in and of itself does not save.
I read the scriptures when you initially responded. But I did not feel like responding to each specific scripture. This is because some relate to receiving the actual indwelling of the Holy Ghost, while others pertain to the operation of spiritual gifts after a person has already been indwelt.
One example, Acts 5:12 has its parallel in Acts 19:11: it states that God brought about special miracles by the hands of Paul. It is God that brings about signs and wonders via the hands of those in whom He dwells. "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Acts 5:12.
The accounts reveal spiritual gifts in operation. People were being healed, etc. The miracles were brought about by the Holy Ghost dwelling inside of Paul. Paul was not giving those he touched the ability to heal, speak a word of knowledge, etc.
People must be indwelt with the Holy Ghost prior to being used in the operation of spiritual gifts.
As to your points relative to Stephen. I have not studied that account enough to respond. I will, however, study the account in the near future.
Thanks for the discussion.
“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
1 John 5:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV
So, one scripture ignoring all rest that establish additional requirements forms the basis for your belief? Lots of luck with that.
Philip was an apostle. He presented the gospel message to the Samaritans. His message included the need to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. One must ask themselves how he and others knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost. Other biblical records detail individuals spoke in tongues upon receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.
The idea that conversions were only carried out that way to evidence peoples of all nations were approved of God is not so. The Acts 19 account reveals that the same message and obedience to the associated commands that bring about the NT rebirth apply to all individuals in general. Keep in mind that it was already understood that Jews were accepted, yet the same message was again presented to the 12 Ephesians. The account reveals the individuals were baptized by John indicating they were of Jewish heritage.
one must recognize that they asked.
Acts 19:2
he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
“And Saul approved of his execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.”
Acts 8:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.8.1.ESV
“Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.”
Acts 8:4-5 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.8.4-5.ESV
Doesn’t this indicate that the Philip who went to Samaria wasn’t Philip the apostle? Couldn’t this have been Philip who was one of the 7 chosen in Acts 6?
The kjv says "since you believed" and the Greek in the interlinear says "having believed" which in both cases is a different connotation than "when you believed" which implies it happens or happened immediately and upon belief only which it didn't. Note that in verse 6 of 19, even after they were baptized in the Lord's name,the Holy Ghost still didn't fall on them immediately, but it required the laying on of Paul's hands, an apostle, to impart the manifestation of the Spirit. Upon their baptism however, they would have received the gift of the Holy Ghost consistent with Acts 2:38, but not the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, a gift or gifts of the Spirit, but just it's indwelling.
Do you think that He is not perfect? What that verse means is that we will be made perfect when we see Jesus return for His people. Our bodies will be transformed. Paul says, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
Paul realised that we can't know all things in this lifetime. So no, the canon of scripture is not the perfection that eliminates the need for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Do you really think Christ is or should be referred to as a "that"??? Christ is not a "that". Referring to him in such a manner is ridiculous and this is not what is meant by "when that which is perfect is come". Below is a part of a study and commentary on spiritual gifts which also addresses this topic. I've previously posted this here and elsewhere
REPOST
Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.
1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Please read the post again. The comment I made was not in reference to Acts 19.
My comment was in regards to the Samaritans: (Acts 8:12-18) "Philip was an apostle. He presented the gospel message to the Samaritans. His message included the need to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. One must ask themselves how he and others knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost. Other biblical records detail individuals spoke in tongues upon receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.
The idea that conversions were only carried out that way to evidence peoples of all nations were approved of God is not so. The Acts 19 account reveals that the same message and obedience to the associated commands that bring about the NT rebirth apply to all individuals in general. Keep in mind that it was already understood that Jews were accepted, yet the same message was again presented to the 12 Ephesians. The account reveals the individuals were baptized by John indicating they were of Jewish heritage."
The above was in response to phil36 Post #188
Yes, upon study of the specific references you make I would have to agree. Thank you so much for sharing!