Saved by faith alone?

Adstar · Jul 24, 2023

That's why people must read the entire post to get the qualifications.. Later in my post i did when i said::

So i did make sure to define the things we do are our works

You have misinterpreted the scripture::

(Romans 4:1-8) "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? {2} For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. {3} For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. {4} Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. {6} Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, {7} Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. {8} Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

Cameron143 · Jul 24, 2023

selahsays said:

Here is another wonderful example of our Father’s ALL-SUFFICIENT GRACE in the Millennium (This is prophecy; it hasn’t happened yet.)

But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

- Hebrews 10:15-17

Is this not true now?

hornetguy · Jul 24, 2023

These discussions remind me of the passdown meetings at the start of each production shift... the techs from the outgoing shift, when discussing a particular project would begin with "all you gotta do ...... " even when there were 3 days of work left on it.... but "all you gotta do.... " was the lead-in.

I see that so much with folks here that want to know what the minimum is for salvation.... "all you gotta do is have faith".... "all you gotta do is believe"..... "all you gotta do is pray the 'sinner's prayer' " .....

Why do we not simply, willingly and lovingly do ALL that is taught in scripture? Why do people look for the LEAST amount of "stuff" to do?
Scripture says we need to hear the good news... and we need to believe it, and we need to have faith enough to accept Jesus' free gift to us, and we need to be baptized, as an appeal for a clear conscience and the forgiveness of sins, and we need to do our dead-level best to obey Jesus' instructions, and we need to spread the gospel.... we also need to repent when we sin....

It's all part of accepting this free gift of salvation..... why do you want to minimize any of it?

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 24, 2023

Lamar said:

Abraham was saved before he did one work.

God is not so weak he needs to see a work to KNOW our faith is real. God knows our hearts.

We call it a works based salvation because that is what it is.

Lamar · Jul 24, 2023

Radius said:

Lamar do you just throw out all of Eph. 2:8?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

How clear can Scripture be? It literally tells you HOW to be saved and how NOT to be saved. You are 100% saying the Bible is wrong, that you do have to work your way there and that works are need in conjunction with the cross.

TO ALL NEW BELIEVERS OR ANYONE ELSE READING THIS THREAD. Please don't go along with Lamar's doctrine. It leads to the pits of hell. If you die and tell God right to His face that you are here because of what YOU did....Dear Lord...it won't end well for you.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is the text:

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, were we by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It is important to understand that Paul is writing this to the Church, the body of God's people. It is not written to the lost. This is not teaching "HOW" to be saved. It is written in the past tense to express to believers of the mercy of God. You are taking this out of context.

This was written to people who already believed, repented, been baptized for the remission of sins, confessed Jesus as Lord etc.

If you want a clear understanding of HOW to be saved look into the Book of Acts.

So you are in error, this does not "literally tells you HOW to be saved".

Lamar · Jul 24, 2023

Cameron143 said:

"Perhaps the phrase is quoted"???

Either I did or did not write it.

Since you can not find the post, it may be you who is in error. Please do not accuse someone of making such a statement and then hide behind such a lame excuse. You are blaming me for you not finding the post?!

Cameron143 · Jul 24, 2023

Lamar said:

Post 506.
It's part of your post. As I look back it seems to be quoted. But your style of posting was what caused the error.
What is not good is to use derogatory terms and use an honest error as an excuse to elude the point of the argument.
I have tried to share truth with you and have treated you respectfully. When discussions turn personal they no longer edifying to God or others and have become unprofitable. So I will wish you the richest of blessings.

Lamar · Jul 24, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

Abraham was saved before he did one work. Was this promise made to you? Was not the promise of Acts 2:38 meant for all of us.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

God is not so weak he needs to see a work to KNOW our faith is real. God knows our hearts. Tell that to Isaac!

11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” 15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son

We call it a works based salvation because that is what it is. And the Bible calls it "for the remission of sins".

Radius · Jul 24, 2023

so how much or many "good works" does one have to do before securing his own salvation, lamar? How do you know you've done enough?

Magenta · Jul 24, 2023

hornetguy said:

I think it is a little more nuanced in that the question boils down to not how are we to live and what are
we to do once we are saved, but what is the first step of salvation, and what does that entail, and what
does it mean? What it entails is being made right with God, being reconciled through faith in the shed
righteous blood of His Son Jesus Christ, Who is Himself God in the flesh, Who incarnated specifically to
pay the sin debt of the world. Positionally we have been transferred or translated out of the kingdom
of darkness into the kingdom of Light. Some people believe you must be baptized in water in order to
attain this positional righteous imputed to us through Christ, while others as you know say it is by faith
alone. Of course most then would follow through with being water baptized, at the very least. The "debate"
goes from there to can we lose our imputed righteousness/position before God, and/or how do we keep it?

Radius · Jul 24, 2023

it's amazing to me that the you need to be baptized to go to Heaven crowd honestly thinks if a man truly accepted Christ as His savior, repented of his sins and is now lined up to get baptized but dies of a heart attack before he gets dunked is going to hell forever. To stay intellectually honest they have to take this position. Utter nonsense.

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 24, 2023

Lamar said:

you have a few issues.

for remission of sin in any language can mean in order to receive remission of sin

or it can mean on account of the fact you received remission of sin.

in acts 2. The gift of the Holy Spirit was given based on the fact the people repented. which means they would have had to already recieve remission of sin before they were baptized.

so the second option would be the correct interpretation.. Let every one of YOU (who repented and based on this repentance received the gift of the spirit) ) be baptized on account you have received remission of sin,

this also joves with What Jesus said in John 3 4 5 and 6 about being born again with eternal life

grace through faith without works is that, period.,

Paul also said in Titus 3 that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy.

water baptism is a work of righteousness. it is being obedient to God.. hence it is not by water baptism. but By Gods mercy he saved us.

Ted01 · Jul 24, 2023

hornetguy said:

I think that simple discussions like this are useful. They help us to learn some of the fundamentals of our Faith. And there are common misconceptions of those things that you call "simple". I also think that it can be dangerous to cavalierly ask "Why do we not simply, willingly and lovingly do ALL that is taught in scripture?" because I don't expect new believers to do ALL that is taught in Scripture... I don't think that God does either, also, I think that the idea that we need to present fundamentals differently to babes/mature in Christ, is spoken of in Scripture. It's ridiculous to me that, so often in the "church" today, many people demand new believers adopt of understanding and behavior that conforms with the more mature.

I think that a fundamental principle is that Christ has done all for us and He stated that Faith in His completed work is what merits Salvation. The rest of the N.T. epistles cement that point, time and again. Others believe that we must somehow prove to God that we are somehow worthy of His favor?

This thread is directly tied to all that... the OP believes that works are required to prove ourselves worthy and demands God to give us what we deserve. (IMHO)

Lamar · Jul 24, 2023

Radius said:

So how much "faith" does one have to have before securing his own salvation, Radius? How do you know you've believed enough?

selahsays · Jul 24, 2023

Cameron143 said:

not yet, @Cameron143
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

- Romans 11:23-27

Cameron143 · Jul 24, 2023

selahsays said:

So how do you reconcile the work of the Holy Spirit in Romans 8 wherein we can confirm our salvation between our spirit and the Holy Spirit? Does He also not pray for us with groanings which cannot be uttered? Is this not also part of the promise of Joel 2:28 that was begun at Pentecost?

hornetguy · Jul 24, 2023

Radius said:

I don't take that position at all....
In the first place, we don't have any input into who goes to hell and who doesn't. All we are to do is spread the Gospel, and let people read what GOD has to say about salvation.... He is the ultimate loving Father, who wants all His kids to be saved, if they just will accept it.
There are many, many scriptures that talk about salvation.... we cannot take any one of them and base our teaching on that one premise. ALL of the scriptures must be taken together to see the whole picture. Anybody can find one or two scriptures that fit their agenda, and conveniently ignore the rest of them..... THAT is intellectually dishonest.

hornetguy · Jul 24, 2023

Ted01 said:

I don't see that as cavalier at all... it's a pretty simple thing...
Of course I don't expect a new believer to know everything.... they are babies... what do babies know?
But, in order to be born, a baby has to do several things.... they have to "know" that it's time, they have to go through the birthing process, and they have to breathe when they arrive. The rest of "doing life" is learned as they grow and mature.
But if you do not instruct a new born Christian in what is necessary to be born, they might not survive the process....
If you tell a baby, all you have to do is survive the birthing process, you've likely risked their life. Sometimes they have to have their bottom slapped to get them to start breathing....
Newborn babies in Christ need to be told what they need to do.... putting your hand on the TV and saying "yes, I believe" is not all there is to it..... and telling people that is doing them a grave disservice. There is more to it than that, and scripture teaches us that, clearly.

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 24, 2023

Lamar said:

Did not Jesus say faith of a mustard seed would move a mountain?

Who do you trust. Jesus or your works?

Cameron143 · Jul 24, 2023

hornetguy said:

I don't see that as cavalier at all... it's a pretty simple thing...
Of course I don't expect a new believer to know everything.... they are babies... what do babies know?
But, in order to be born, a baby has to do several things.... they have to "know" that it's time, they have to go through the birthing process, and they have to breathe when they arrive. The rest of "doing life" is learned as they grow and mature.
But if you do not instruct a new born Christian in what is necessary to be born, they might not survive the process....
If you tell a baby, all you have to do is survive the birthing process, you've likely risked their life. Sometimes they have to have their bottom slapped to get them to start breathing....
Newborn babies in Christ need to be told what they need to do.... putting your hand on the TV and saying "yes, I believe" is not all there is to it..... and telling people that is doing them a grave disservice. There is more to it than that, and scripture teaches us that, clearly.

I'm trying to understand your analogy. On the one hand, you seem to say they are a newborn believer but need to be instructed in what needs to be done and on the other hand that these things need to be done to be saved. If I have misunderstood, please help me understand.

Saved by faith alone?

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