What does that simple question reveal?
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Those were unusual situations. Here is the norm (Eph 1:13,14):
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the Word of Truth,
the Gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed
with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.
Not only do believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are "sealed" as the purchased possession of Christ. The Holy Spirit is "the earnest" or down payment of the promised gift of eternal life.
SO NO ONE SHOULD BE ASKING -- OR BEING ASKED -- THAT QUESTION!
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the Word of Truth,
the Gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed
with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.
Not only do believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are "sealed" as the purchased possession of Christ. The Holy Spirit is "the earnest" or down payment of the promised gift of eternal life.
SO NO ONE SHOULD BE ASKING -- OR BEING ASKED -- THAT QUESTION!
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No. What I am saying is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the fulness of the Spirit. Therefore Paul says to believers who already have the Spirit "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit". People can be under the influence of alcohol, or under the control of the Holy Spirit.
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You are trying to make an exception into a rule. More false doctrine from Wansvic. So once you cling to one false doctrine, it follows that you will add more and more to your repertoire.
So what happened on the day of Pentecost? Did the 3,000 Jews receive the gift of the Holy Spirit immediately or not? And if they did receive the gift on that day, then your contention has no merit. Pentecost was an extremely important day in 30 AD.
So what happened on the day of Pentecost? Did the 3,000 Jews receive the gift of the Holy Spirit immediately or not? And if they did receive the gift on that day, then your contention has no merit. Pentecost was an extremely important day in 30 AD.
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The scripture doesn't call them "mistakenly supposed believers who really weren't believers"
The scripture calls them "believers"
i rather think the scripture is correct in doing so, even though they were ignorant at the time of Pentecost.
belief in Pentecost doesn't save us.
belief in the Lamb of God does - and being disciples of John, they believed in the Lamb of God.
The scripture calls them "believers"
i rather think the scripture is correct in doing so, even though they were ignorant at the time of Pentecost.
belief in Pentecost doesn't save us.
belief in the Lamb of God does - and being disciples of John, they believed in the Lamb of God.
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Well, these are disciples, and they did believe.
A group receiving the Holy Spirit is different from individual receiving the Holy Spirit.
A group... receiving..that's becoming one of God's churches..being empowered as already saved and water baptised believers.
An individual receiving... Thats receiving the Spirit at belief in Jesus as God and Saviour
So I believe these are already converted... receiving the Holy Spirit as a group 'in the midst'.
Apollos taught these disciples..but did not know baptism rightly... So these disciples were baptised agai. In the right authority. The right way.
A group receiving the Holy Spirit is different from individual receiving the Holy Spirit.
A group... receiving..that's becoming one of God's churches..being empowered as already saved and water baptised believers.
An individual receiving... Thats receiving the Spirit at belief in Jesus as God and Saviour
So I believe these are already converted... receiving the Holy Spirit as a group 'in the midst'.
Apollos taught these disciples..but did not know baptism rightly... So these disciples were baptised agai. In the right authority. The right way.
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Trick question? Belief is only the 1st step. The scriptures reveal belief alone does nothing in and of itself since even devils believe, right? Those that believed in the biblical record were required to do more, i.e., confess their belief, repent, and be baptized. It's only after you've done these things that you're saved at which point you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38.
No, the question by itself does not reveal that... IT IS ONLY OBVIOUS TO YOU BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE CONTEXT!!!!!!
Lets say somebody is taught that they DO receive the holy ghost automatically when they believe the whole gospel- well, they would probably assume that Paul is asking an indirect question here to try and find out if these guys know the full gospel, or the real gospel.
Plopping down a verse, and playing it off like the context doesn't matter is laziness at best and deception at worst.
Lets say somebody is taught that they DO receive the holy ghost automatically when they believe the whole gospel- well, they would probably assume that Paul is asking an indirect question here to try and find out if these guys know the full gospel, or the real gospel.
Plopping down a verse, and playing it off like the context doesn't matter is laziness at best and deception at worst.
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Acts 19:1-3
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
They knew the message of John the Baptist and believed it.
when Paul said "when you believed" he wasn't deceived - they believed at least this much:
John 1:29-34
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water." And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."
so they believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Lamb, come to take away the sin of the world. their trust is in Him, in Christ, in God Who sent Him.
Paul did not need to preach this to them, and the record is that he didn't.
What He did add to them, was the knowledge of what had happened at Pentecost, and imparted to them a spiritual gift, laying his hands on them.
They were not unbelievers but believers.
IMO this is not their having become saved or sealed. this is their being filled with the Spirit in power.
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
They knew the message of John the Baptist and believed it.
when Paul said "when you believed" he wasn't deceived - they believed at least this much:
John 1:29-34
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water." And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."
so they believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Lamb, come to take away the sin of the world. their trust is in Him, in Christ, in God Who sent Him.
Paul did not need to preach this to them, and the record is that he didn't.
What He did add to them, was the knowledge of what had happened at Pentecost, and imparted to them a spiritual gift, laying his hands on them.
They were not unbelievers but believers.
IMO this is not their having become saved or sealed. this is their being filled with the Spirit in power.
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Amen! Wansvic is absolutely obsessed with water baptism and it's also just about the only thing Wansvic talks about.
In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe on Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed on Christ Jesus unto salvation. These disciples of John needed further instructions to become believers on Christ Jesus then afterwards, they received the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them (which is the exception, not the rule in every case of conversion, as in Acts 2 and Acts 10).
In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe on Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed on Christ Jesus unto salvation. These disciples of John needed further instructions to become believers on Christ Jesus then afterwards, they received the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them (which is the exception, not the rule in every case of conversion, as in Acts 2 and Acts 10).
The word of truth, the gospel of salvation referenced in the letter to the EPHESIANS is in full display in Acts 19. The 12 EPHESIAN disciples believed and responded to the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, presented by the Apostle Paul, that ultimately brought about their being indwelt/sealed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit. (Acts 19:1-7)
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the Word of Truth,
the Gospel of your salvation:
In whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealing
with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? Asking that question is prudent. It sheds light on the truth that many never hear.
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the Word of Truth,
the Gospel of your salvation:
In whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealing
with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? Asking that question is prudent. It sheds light on the truth that many never hear.
No. The experience is not exclusive to the laying on of hands. Although, this scripture along with the Acts 8 account confirms it does happen that way at times. Receiving the Holy Ghost can occur spontaneously as noted in Acts 2 and Acts 10. Also, as revealed by Jesus, the experience can be prompted by pursuing the Holy Ghost through prayer. (Luke 11:13)