Pre-Trib vs Post Trib and 1 Thess. 4:15

seekingthemindofChrist · Jul 16, 2023

It isn't.

"The wedding SUPPER / FEAST" is located on the earth, and IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, or at least its inauguration, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN "the meal [G347]"--so says Luke 12:36-37,38,40, 42-48... [parallel passage to Matt24:42-51]).

Rather, it is "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [singular]"... presently "betrothed"--2Cor11:2--that's us) which is what will take place UP THERE (... "and SO [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord").

"The wedding FEAST / SUPPER," on the other hand, is NOT what we will be attending up there upon "our Rapture" (that is NOT its purpose).

This is the distinction being shown between Rev19:7 (re: "the MARRIAGE" pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [singular]") and Rev19:9 (re: "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" pertaining to the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" guests ['they' / plural], which will commence upon His RETURN to the earth / i.e. the earthly MK age).

That is not the "pre-trib" scenario.

Though, admittedly, some (poorly-taught) pre-tribbers do mistakenly say such. It simply is not the case.

But again, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [the MK age, or its inauguration--located on the earth]" doesn't take place until Christ's "RETURN" to the earth (following Rev19), that is, commencing up His Second Coming to the earth (we will be returning WITH HIM, at that point in the chronology).

A completely misconstrued idea, and not what Scripture reveals... as to the chronology of things, and what happens where (etc).

[pre-tribber here

.... Me... so this post is coming from the "pre-trib" perspective... just to be clear]

So, in your belief system, the tribulation saints, or those who have allegedly been "left behind", will not attend the wedding or be a part of the bride of Christ?

I would seriously reconsider by beliefs if I were you..

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 17, 2023

^ @seekingthemindofChrist ,

Many problems arise when people tend to EQUATE the "10 Virgins / 5 Virgins [PLURAL]" with the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]".

In Matthew 25, Jesus is not coming for the purpose / intention of MARRYING "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" or even "5 Virgins" [PLURAL]; and I find it rather disturbing that people seem oblivious to the problem that such an idea invokes...

Yes, the "5 [wise] Virgins" WILL enter the MK age (in mortal bodies), the MK age being "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (or at least its inauguration).

These are "saved" persons ('wise') and they will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him" to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER (the MK age), per v.10;
This "WITH [G3326]"-word being distinct from the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" word used regarding us / the Church which is His body / the presently-betrothed "bride [singular]"/WIFE [singular], in passages such as 1Th4:17, Col3:4, etc...

It is a matter of "WHEN" these each come to faith in Christ.

The "10 / 5 Virgins" TOOK LAMPS because they pertain to the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period commonly called the Tribulation Period (7 yrs, yet future; the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks to / describes, which is the future, specific, LIMITED time period leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," [to which "GUESTS [PLURAL]" will have been "INVITED" DURING the Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") and sometimes referred to as "the MEAL [G347; Matt8:11 and parallel; Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" at that point] THEN "the meal [G347--see Matt8:11 too!]"--the sequence is explicitly clear, here

)

Hope that helps you see my perspective.

[the men in your church do not "marry" MULTIPLE females on their wedding day, do they?? *yikes* ... lol ... just wondering

]

seekingthemindofChrist · Jul 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I am sorry, but this is just more absolute nonsense.

Let's take a look at these "guests":

Matthew 22:1-2

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,"

In this parable, Jesus likened the kingdom of heaven to a certain king who made a marriage for his son. I hope that we would at least agree that this king is God the Father and that his son who is getting married is Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22:3-7

"And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

This king, or God the Father, sent forth his servants, or the prophets, to call them that were bidden to the wedding, and they would not come to the marriage with the accompanying dinner or supper. Some made light of the invitation and went their own ways, and others took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. Of course, Jesus was here referring to the Jews who killed their own prophets whom God had repeatedly sent to them. In fact, God eventually got so angry or wroth that he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city which is Jerusalem.

Do you understand this?

If so, then pause here for a moment, and ask yourself this very important question:

Were these Jews who were bidden to this marriage and dinner or supper merely "guests", as in those who were merely invited as casual observers, or were they invited as part of the actual bride of Christ itself?

Of course, the right answer is the latter of the two. Keep this in mind as the parable continues.

Matthew 22:8-10

"Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests."

Seeing how the original invitees, the non-believing Jews to whom Christ was here referring, were not worthy to attend this wedding and the accompanying dinner or supper as part of the bride of Christ, the king, or God the Father, instructed his servants, or the prophets, to go out into the highways, and to bid as many as they could find to the marriage and dinner in the place of the non-believing Jews. They, these new invitees, were to be a part of the bride of Christ in the stead of the non-believing Jews, and not just merely "guests" in the manner in which we might use that word today. In other words, here, Christ is equating these "guests" with the bride of Christ.

Matthew 22:11-14

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."

When the king, or when God the Father, came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment, and we know, from elsewhere in scripture, that this wedding garment is the following:

Revelation 19:7-9

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

As Christians, our wedding garments, figuratively speaking, are fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, and this is what this man was found to be without.

Let's pause here for another moment, and ask ourselves another very important question:

Where was this inspection taking place?

In heaven or on earth?

If it was taking place in heaven at the marriage and its accompanying dinner or supper, as many people wrongly believe and teach, then how did this man get to heaven without being clothed in fine linen, clean and white?

It is absolute nonsense.

This inspection takes place on earth because that is where the marriage and its accompanying dinner or supper will take place. Those who appear before Christ at the great white throne judgment at the end of his millennial reign without a wedding garment will be cast into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Finally, according to that which Jesus actually taught in relation to his marriage and the accompanying dinner or supper, these "guests" have been being invited all throughout history to be a part of the bride of Christ, and not merely during the tribulation years after your imaginary pre-tribulation rapture allegedly occurs.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 17, 2023

^ @seekingthemindofChrist ,

Again, it is not located "in Heaven" (because this passage is speaking of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, and who will enter it... as its Subjects).

Notice that v.7 is speaking to the events surrounding "70ad" ("and when the king heard thereof, HE WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies [see Lk21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people"; and Lk19:41-44 "because"; and Matt24:2/Mk13:2/Lk21:6; etc], and destroyed those murderers, and BURNED UP THEIR CITY [see also Dan9:26b "the people OF" (the prince that SHALL COME) "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary... desolaTIONS [plural] are determined"--this v.26b coming sequentially after the "CUT OFF" (of the Messiah) at the conclusion of the "69 Weeks" which concluded on what we call Palm Sunday, when Jesus SAID what He said in Lk19:41-44 and DID what he did (fulfilling Zech9:9), both of these having to do with "the city [/Jerusalem]"--which is what the time-prophecy in Dan9:24-27 is concerning, "...are determined upon THY [Daniel's] people, and upon THY [Daniel's] holy CITY"--There remains yet the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" aspect);

Then verse 8 of Matthew 22 (after the "70ad" Subject of v.7) states, "THEN SAITH HE to his servants," which necessarily must come AFTER the 70ad events of v.7... but recall, Jesus is up in Heaven at this point in the chronology... But we can see in the wording of the LATER written "[95ad] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW unto His servants [compare Rev7:3 "144,000 servants of our God"] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. in the 7-yr tribulation period; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1), which is the time-period WHEN the "HAVING BEEN INVITED [guests]" that Rev19:9 is talking about (not to mention, Matt22:9-14 and elsewhere) will have been transpiring, that is, DURING the Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

"The least of these My brethren" are not the ones BEING judged / separated in the "SHEEP and goat" judgment (to determine who [which mortals] will enter the MK age)... and they are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US, either. "The least of these My brethren" are the believing remnant of Israel IN / DURING / WITHIN the future Trib years (who will have come to faith in Christ at that future time, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); and it is THEY who will be doing the "INVITING" of the "guests [plural]" (again, the "guests [PLURAL]" are not "the Bride / Wife [singular]"--He is not coming at that point to MARRY the "guests [plural]," see... NOR to MARRY the "10 [or 5] VirginS," either.)

The Lord will use "our Rapture" as a major impetus that will aid [many of] Israel in turning to faith in Christ (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib years), and it is these who will be doing the "INVITING" TO "the marriage SUPPER / FEAST" aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (i.e. "the age [singular] to come"--distinct from "this present age"); IOW, we are not presently "inviting" ppl TO the earthly MK age / wedding FEAST / SUPPER... We are asking people to be part of "the MARRIAGE" (presently "betrothed" to Christ--future-ly "PRESENTED" to Him... AS ONE "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"); The "guests [plural]" and the "5 [wise] VirginS [plural]" will be present on the earth upon His RETURN there... they NEVER lift off the earth... They will ENTER the earthly MK age as "still-living" mortals (as "saints," believers, saved persons, "the righteous," the "BLESSED"... etc). The ones who DIE in the Trib years, will be "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth), is what that word means]" to same.

Omegatime · Jul 17, 2023

Radius said:

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No one can argue that the Lord doesnt return at the end of the Tribulation for it is mentioned too many times but in Matthew 25 it also speaks of his retrurn.

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats---

No mention of a rapture or resurrection but a judgement to determine who enters the kingdom ( in the flesh ), nor is there a mention of a resurrection in his other coming at the end of the tribulation, such as:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31 and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Radius · Jul 17, 2023

Omegatime said:

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No one can argue that the Lord doesnt return at the end of the Tribulation for it is mentioned too many times but in Matthew 25 it also speaks of his retrurn.

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats---

No mention of a rapture or resurrection but a judgement to determine who enters the kingdom ( in the flesh ), nor is there a mention of a resurrection in his other coming at the end of the tribulation, such as:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31 and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

so you believe in a pre-wrath or mid trib rapture then?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

This is simply nonsensical and Revelation 19 totally refutes this nonsense. When Christ returns to earth He comes to administer wrath and judgment.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:14,15)

Revelation 19 makes it crystal clear that the Marriage of the Lamb is in Heaven and takes place BEFORE Christ descends with His armies of saints and angels.

Omegatime · Jul 17, 2023

Radius said:

Pre-Mil 100 % But I also see one at Rev 14:15

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 17, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

It seems you're not remembering my past posts, where I've stated that Rev19:7 says, "the marriage CAME" and "the bride PREPARED"... that took place UP THERE... and the "UNIONed-with [G4862] Him" thing had already taken place WAY BACK AT THE RAPTURE point in the chronology, PRE-trib / PRE-70th Wk ("and so [/in this manner] shall we ever be WITH / UNIONed-with the Lord")--not clear at the END of the Trib time-period at this Rev19 time-slot. At the Rev19 point in the chronology, the Luke 17:27,29 "and destroyed ALL" takes place (referring to all those who'd NOT trusted in Christ during those Trib yrs on the earth), corresponding with the same that we see here:

--Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 CORRESPONDS with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[,23]... which is separated by a time-period before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24:21-22[,23] will be carried out (i.e. the MK age intervenes between His Second Coming to the earth when the Lk 17:27,29 "and DESTROYED ALL" takes place, and the LATER GWTj takes place 1000 yrs after that).

So where Isa23:21,22 says, "... the LORD shall PUNISH the host of the high ones that are on high, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH UPON THE EARTH, And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered IN THE PIT [comp. 'death' / 'grave' / 'hell/hades'], and shall be shut up in the prison, and AFTER MANY DAYS [i.e. the MK age] they shall be PUNISHED [i.e. the GWTj and the cast into the Lake of Fire]--this is one reason why Isaiah 23-27 is commonly referred to as "the little apocalypse"--this means that NO "unsaved" person will ENTER the MK age (in mortal bodies... or otherwise, lol). So yes, ALL the unsaved, at that point are said to be "DESTROYED" (i.e. they are KILLED). Only the "guests" who are given the supplied "garments" (b/c they trusted Christ for salvation in the Trib yrs) can stay for "the wedding supper / feast" / MK age (they ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies--these are the "saints" / the "righteous" / the "BLESSED" [Dan12:12, for one example... and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same time-slot / circumstances... like Matt25:31-34's "BLESSED" and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" etc etc)

... will provide a few more evidences of this when I come back on... I need to go tend to some tasks ATM...

But, know that I am NOT saying when Jesus returns to the earth (Rev19) there's no judgment. Not saying that in the least! (see above)

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

EDIT to correct: Should read "Isa24:21,22..." (as I'd put earlier in the post).

robert1978bp · Jul 18, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

the Marriage has many parts to it, one being the supper.. the supper is the judgement on Satan's armies, Rev 19 makes it crystal clear.. whether there is an actual feast after that to celebrate the victory, or the judgment itself IS the supper makes no difference in that the supper is on earth..

robert1978bp · Jul 18, 2023

Here is one more thing to consider regarding the "supper".. do you think the Saints are hungry for meat and wine? Or do they hunger for the righteous judgment of God poured out on His enemies?

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” - Rev 6:10

Radius · Jul 18, 2023

Omegatime said:

??
Sorry, did you mean pre-wrath or pre-trib? Pre-mill has to do with Christ return date.

Omegatime · Jul 18, 2023

Radius said:

Pre-tribulation ( my error)

The tribulation is to deal with sin and acceptance of the lord.

Just no clearer picture than in Hebrews 9:28

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

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Pre-Trib vs Post Trib and 1 Thess. 4:15

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations

TheDivineWatermark

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