Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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DJT_47 said:
You must be faithful unto death. So, if you're not, you can't ultimately be saved. Initially yes, but you must remain faithful unto death as the scripture says. So bottom line, you CAN lose your salvation.
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Show us the words "lose salvation" in scripture. Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Phil 2:12

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
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Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.
 
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DJT_47 said:
What about those that may have believed and become Christians but then deny or denounce him. This is what was been warned of in the Hebrew letter to the newly converted Jews. Consider a baptized believer, a saved individual, who renounces Jesus and becomes a Muslim. Is this person still saved? I don't think so.
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John answers that question

They were never of us, if they were of us they never would have departed. but they departed to reveal the fact they were never of us..

A true child of God. who has Gods spirit and has experienced his true forgiveness and love does not become a Muslim.
'
 
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SomeDisciple said:
OSAS is Calvinism but only after salvation- once you believe, you're locked in, and God won't let you leave. Anybody who leaves "never really believed"... based on a superbad interpretation of 1john2 18,19... even though in the same chapter John tells them "now, little children, remain in Christ", as if they have some kind of a choice!
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OSAS may be calvinist.

But eternal security and the seal of the spirit are Christist!
 
DJT_47 said:
What about those that may have believed and become Christians but then deny or denounce him. This is what was been warned of in the Hebrew letter to the newly converted Jews. Consider a baptized believer, a saved individual, who renounces Jesus and becomes a Muslim. Is this person still saved? I don't think so.
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There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Those who claim to have become a Christian, but then later denounce faith and become a Muslim or atheist etc.. demonstrate that saving faith in Christ was never firmly rooted or established from the start. (1 John 2:19) Genuine believers (saints) are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) and are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
 
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DJT_47 said:
That makes no sense. If you believe, confess your belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and then baptized, you're saved.
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Here is your first issue. Your not saved by water baptism. If you think this, it makes total sense why you believe salvation can be lost.. Because you think salvation is of you not christ

If that infividual at some later point in his life then renounced Christ, he would then no longer be saved. How could he be? If it can't happen as you're suggesting, then why the biblical warnings? Simon the sorcerer believed and was baptized and thereby saved in Acts 8, but because he wanted to purchase the power of God he saw being manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands, he was told to repent or perish. That means he could have been lost.
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Peter denied Christ three times. Did he lose salvation?
 
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DJT_47 said:
You must be faithful unto death. So, if you're not, you can't ultimately be saved. Initially yes, but you must remain faithful unto death as the scripture says. So bottom line, you CAN lose your salvation.

Phil 2:12

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
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Paul; is telling them to work out the salvation that thay HAVE.

not to work to earn salvation

You can not do e4nough works to gain forgiveness of one sin.

You can't save yourself
 
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mailmandan said:
Show us the words "lose salvation" in scripture. Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.
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How about the word perish as in Acts 8 verse 20 as was told to Simon the sorcerer. Perish = lost salvation
 
DJT_47 said:
How about the word perish as in Acts 8 verse 20 as was told to Simon the sorcerer. Perish = lost salvation
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No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it/bogus conversion. Notice Peter said to Simon, "may your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God, repent of this wickedness/poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.' That is not descriptive of a born again Christian.
 
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mailmandan said:
No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it/bogus conversion. Notice Peter said to Simon, "may your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God, repent of this wickedness/poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.' That is not descriptive of a born again Christian.
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One comment only for you based on past exchanges, more like a comment for the other readers to correct your response here.
Simon believed just like everyone else. He was baptized for the remission of his sins (Acts 2:38) just like everyone else. By doing this, he was added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:47). This means he was a Christian. He was told to repent acts 8:22, or perish. He asked Peter to pray for him, so obviously he repented. His conversion was no different than anyone else's who followed or follows the plan of salvation. Goodbye.
 
DJT_47 said:
One comment only for you based on past exchanges, more like a comment for the other readers to correct your response here.
Simon believed just like everyone else. He was baptized for the remission of his sins (Acts 2:38) just like everyone else. By doing this, he was added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:47). This means he was a Christian. He was told to repent acts 8:22, or perish. He asked Peter to pray for him, so obviously he repented. His conversion was no different than anyone else's who followed or follows the plan of salvation. Goodbye.
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Your biased assumption is refuted by the words of Peter as I already explained. Simon's conversion was bogus as was crystal clear from Peter's rebuke.

Now even though we read that Simon was said to have "believed and was baptized," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ. There were disciples of John in Acts 19 who needed to be re-baptized because they failed to believe in Jesus unto salvation. They had not even heard there was a Holy Spirit!

There are different levels of belief, and different objects of belief, and not all that’s called "belief" is saving belief in Christ. In the parable of the soils, we see a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. (Matthew 13:20-21; Luke 8:6). Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart to believe unto salvation.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that there is one God, yet they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
 
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I'm convinced that the atonement was for an elect group, the sheep. The fact ithat Christ won't lose any of His sheep.
— John 10:14-16
 
DJT_47, ..He asked Peter to pray for him, so obviously he repented..
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After hearing Peter's rebuke, Simon asks Peter to pray for him out of fear of the consequences for his sin. Nothing conclusive about repentance unto salvation.
 
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mailmandan said:
After hearing Peter's rebuke, Simon asks Peter to pray for him out of fear of the consequences for his sin. Nothing conclusive about repentance unto salvation.
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Ive come to learn nobody can dispute salvation,

Because a person can only know that there saved.

A person can only trust that they will be saved by knowing what the word of God says and believing what the word of God says


So for me any dispute of being saved has to be an element of doubt.
 
Fundaamental said:
Ive come to learn nobody can dispute salvation,

Because a person can only know that there saved.

A person can only trust that they will be saved by knowing what the word of God says and believing what the word of God says


So for me any dispute of being saved has to be an element of doubt.
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Doubt is very beneficial for people who believe heresy.
 
RaceRunner said:
Doubt is very beneficial for people who believe heresy.
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again heresy is not something you can believe in, it's only a concept that comes about from lack of understanding or leaning on your own.

Doubting your salvation is in a way is like trying to work your salvation out with fear and trembling.

But rather than ask for your self its far easier to ask about somebody else's salvation


It's a bit of a stinker.

Because you can only know that you will be saved
 
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
 
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God has promised their certainty, and that alone gives us assurance of salvation (Hebrews 6:17-18).

This Alone spells it out.

You can only know you are saved.

Because of the assurance given to you that you will be.

So then you would ask how can I know by personal assurance and how do I feel that assurance.


Well you can't


You can only know as you are only being assured
 
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